The State of the Metal Erector Industry - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Bobby Mesmer of RMG Erectors and Constructors. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the recording.

Intro: Hello, and welcome to MetalCast from Metal Coffee Shop, my name is Heidi Ellsworth and today we are talking about the state of the metal erector industry. I have to tell you, I love these topics, I am so excited to hear about metal buildings, what's happening out there, the trends. And so we asked the expert in the field Bobby Mesmer to come and visit with us today and talk about metal buildings. Bobby, welcome to the show.

Bobby Mesmer: Heidi, thank you, it's great seeing you again, how you doing?
Heidi J. Ellsworth: I am doing good, it's so good to see you. I have to tell you, I think you know this, but way back in the day, I used to write for Metal Magazine and I wrote the Erector's Corner.

Bobby Mesmer: You did?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I did.

Bobby Mesmer: Now, did you come at that with experience from hands-on erection? Because for some reason, I think that you might've been out there in the field a few times to get some experience. I don't know why, but I get that out of you.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I was. My dad, growing up with the general contractor, you know how that goes and he was putting up metal buildings, we were doing metal roofs, all those kinds of things. So I had a little bit, I had just enough to be dangerous, which is usually the case.

Bobby Mesmer: That's more the case than not these days anymore. But the fact that you did that and then you went out there and you got a little bit of experience and then you would write about it makes the experience more valuable than anything, trust me.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It does.

Bobby Mesmer: So that's great.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And it is so fun.

Bobby Mesmer: I can respect that more.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. Now that we've got that out of the way, but let's talk a little bit about you, can you introduce yourself for those few who don't know you and tell me a little bit about your company?

Bobby Mesmer: Absolutely. So I'm Bobby Mesmer, I'm the CEO of RMG Erectors and Constructors, we are the world's largest pre-engineered steel building erector. We've been in business now for 24 years and we've set the tone in the metal building erection industry across the United States. We have doubled our revenues and our total square footage erected year over year for the last three years in a row consistently, where we are erecting on average about 4 million square feet more than any other erector in the entire country. And we're just continuing to try to shape this industry and looking to make it just more efficient and better for the people that are coming in behind us and want to make this industry a great thing.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: You and I have had so many conversations and I love your progressive outlook on really doing what's right for the industry, changing it, not just the old way. So why don't you share a little bit about your history in the metal building industry and what brought you to where you're at today in really such a progressive, successful company?

Bobby Mesmer: We started out as a general contractor actually, so we had a lot of experience there and we migrated into the general or into the steel building erection industry. And it was really by default because what we found was, there was a need for metal building erectors and so we got involved in it. The way the story goes is, basically we bought a building, it was an airplane hangar, we needed to erect it, we couldn't find an erector, I put together my own crew, we went out there, we erected it and puff, here we are and it's really that simple. And I stood back and I was like, that's it, I'm like, really, that's all it took?

And then what was funny was, I was actually on a government base, on the same site, we bid another airplane hangar, we didn't actually win that contract, another competitor did, but then he hired us to erect it for him because he couldn't find an erector. So magically, we saw a need, so we went after the need and then it just progressed from there and eventually we phased out the general construction side of our business. And so by doing that, we saw the value, we saw the market gap that we could go after here and we just really monopolized upon it. And we looked at the industry quite differently, I remember when it was actually 2015 when we actually went full hardcore into the steel building industry as an erector, we were completely phased out of the GC side, so we set a tone of how we wanted to do the business and it was funny because everybody said to us, you can't do it that way, that's not the way it's done.

We had contractors that we went to erect for who erected their own buildings who would tell us and argue with us, that's not the way you erect the building and we're like, that's the way that we erect the building. So it's same common goal, what difference does it make how we get there? And if it's safe and it's adequate and it's all the things that you need to be, what are we arguing about? And people just couldn't get it, and everybody told us that we're going to fail and you're never going to go anywhere and this and that and now here we are in 2024, it's amazing that we're the size that we are in this industry and in the world in this business and we hope that we're a guidance for people, that people want to look at us and say, I want to do it like him and I want to do it like them.

And we do see people that are trying to, even some of the naysayers that we had from back in the day who came at us, we see them trying to do business the same way. They're not being too successful at it, but we're always there and saying, look, you got questions, just ask. That's what I did, I would go to the conferences and the seminars and the training facilities and I would put myself around some of these people because I wanted to hear what they were doing different, the guys that were bigger than me, how are you bigger than me? How did you get there? And so that's where we are, that's how we got here.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. And you and I have talked about this before, but that's exactly how I feel, we've done it our own way, we found what worked and we enjoy it every day because of that, we aren't caught in doing something in an old way that doesn't make sense anymore.

Bobby Mesmer: No, it's stagnation and not only in the business, but it's stagnation in the industry. If you're not going to set a new tone, what changes for the better? And so somebody has to be a pioneer, and so I'm willing to take those risks to be the pioneer and it's paid off for us. The problem is that people look back and they say, the business has been done this way for 50 years or 60 years and my attitude is, who cares, does that make it right? Does it make it the right way? No, it doesn't, so look, let's change it up a little bit and look at it a little bit differently because if you don't evolve over time, you die, that's it, that's just the way it is hands down. And that's why you see a lot of these businesses out there these days, especially in the erection industry, even in the building sales side of the industry, they're dying slow deaths because they just refuse to evolve into what the business can be.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, I think that is so true. Let's flip just a little bit because I'm really interested in this too, what are some of the leading trends in metal building that you're starting to see out there? We just talked about how to install it is changing and progressing and using all the technologies and everything and the new systems, what are some of the cool things that are happening around metal buildings overall?

Bobby Mesmer: You're seeing new engineering techniques, I think is great, which is allowing the business to diversify into the normal box that everybody pictured a pre-engineered building to be. If you talk to some old timers about pre-engineered, what happens with them is, they talk about it as its traditional box, this is what it is. And that's not the case, and so the engineering techniques that are allowing the market of pre-engineered to expand into so many other markets. So I think that's one, the materials that are being utilized and the efficiency of the materials is definitely propelling the industry forward. Our buildings tend to have a better thermal rating when designed, engineered and erected correctly than most other buildings, you can't duplicate that, you can't get that in some other buildings like, say, conventional wood construction, so those dynamics.

The manufacturers are really putting a lot of effort into the business to say, how do we put better finishes on the product, issue a better finish warranty? How do we look at the weather tightness warranties that the manufacturers are providing through the certified directors to issue a better warranty that make the roofs and all that last longer? Right now, hands down, I don't have anything personally against rubber or TPO roofs, but our roof systems when done right, will outlive one of those roofs twofold and especially if they're maintained correctly, that's money that you can't buy back.

And so we're seeing those things, and there's a lot of involvement in educating the outside world, the developers, the end users, the architects, the engineers into the product to give them a more thorough understanding. I know us as a company, I take every opportunity that I can to explain to different developers and end users on who I'm mainly contact with to say, you're a retail developer, you build strip centers, that's what you build, why are you building them still the old-fashioned way? Use a pre-engineered building, and here's the benefits to using a pre-engineered building. And you can do a hybrid, you don't need to do a full pre-engineered system. You want to still put a TPO roof on, fine, I'll put a B deck up there, put a TPO roof, we'll single slope it, you don't need to have internal drains with leaks. You still want to put a black wall on the back, fine, put up a black wall.

But here's the thing, I can clear span the building for you front to back and now your tenant spaces aren't driven by 50 foot column lines where you have to divide your tenants by 50 feet now. And that's been a big thing, like being a developer and a private equity guy who puts into projects myself, I want flexibility. And the development market out there has changed substantially to the point where tenants are harder to get for these end users. So we have to come up with the solution for them, and that's where I say we change the business, we're revolutionizing the business because we're going to our customers and saying, do it this way and we're giving them the option as opposed to them waiting for them to say, here's what I want.

And that's the problem in the business, we're too used to sitting back and waiting for the work to come to us and, it's an opportunity to bid on this. What about educating them and saying, this product works this way and we can give you these other options to better suit what you're trying to build and what you're doing to give you more flexibility?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And let's be serious, building owners or developers, a lot of times they have no idea what they want or even what's available. And then when you come with that idea of how to multi use the space in such a way that is so flexible, that makes lifelong customers.

Bobby Mesmer: It does, and it does because you're giving them options, you're giving them value from the start. Architects bring a great value, engineers bring a great value, but what happens is, the architectural industry still follows suit the same way, they're stagnant in what they do. Architects are good, they're smart people, they have great ideas, they have great design, all those things, nobody can take that away from you. But what happens is, if you look at the markets, all the buildings look the same in the Northeast, all the buildings look the same in the Southeast, they're all engineered the same, designed the same, the same products. It's market in the territories where the developers and the end users have to learn to, look, let me go to my architect, let me talk to him, but maybe the architect doesn't know everything that he should know to give me the best value and the best option that I need.

That's an opportunity for them to come to an expert in the industry like us, somebody who really has hands on in the industry who I can look at their product and say, I can give you this solution and this will save you money. I'll tell you a quick story, we did that, I have a customer who builds warehouses and we do all of his pre-engineered warehouses, but he also has another side of his group where he owns hotels and he builds hotels and he owns and operate some. So we were talking one day and he comes to me and he's complaining about the hotel costs, and he's like, "I got these five hotels, $15 million apiece, 75 million budget, I just think this is ridiculous."

And he hired a construction manager and the construction manager wanted to build everything out of wood. And I said to him, "well, why would you do that?" And he goes, "well, he's telling me it's cheaper," and I said, "well, no offense to the construction manager, but aren't you paying them like 7% of the value of construction?" I said, "does he really have an incentive to tell you what's really cheaper or do you think he's got an incentive to not?" I said, "so nothing to take away from, and no disrespect, but let's call a spade a spade."

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Exactly.

Bobby Mesmer: And so I said to him, "look, let me do a performance for you, I guarantee that my solution is less expensive." And so we did a hybrid steel solution, where these were five-storey hotels, we did steel bar joist decking, we did a girt system on the outside, framed in all the windows, did an insulated panel that met the STC rating, the sound ratings and all of the thermal code ratings. We had the building erected, closed in the building and all that in no time, but at the end of the day, the solution that I gave him shaved $3 million off of his wood frame budget, $3 million.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: How?

Bobby Mesmer: Ready for this? The value that he got was so extensive, he built a six hotel basically for the budget of five. He went out and bought land and built a six hotel with it because he saved $3 million per hotel. And it wasn't just because of the offset, everybody looks at it very shallow minded, but there's so much more that goes into wood construction.

Now, coming from the GC world and also being a professional myself in the architectural and engineering world, I understand these things and that's the solutions and that's what people in ... I feel that as a metal building contractor, a metal building erector, a metal building manufacturer now and having an engineering department doing this, we have an obligation to show what our building capabilities are. We have an obligation to work with the end users and show what we can do and offer those solutions to everybody out there to make this business more amazing and make it more fruitful.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That story blows me away, I love it. And I love that trend because what you're talking about is really, and when you think about the performance of metal and the durability and the longevity, all of those things, it's not just a one and done saving $3 million, this is a long term savings.

Bobby Mesmer: Well, it's long term from the sense too, you have to understand what the end user needs, requires and is going through and most people don't understand that. And what that is, number one, it's carrying costs, number two, it's insurance, a wood frame structure is more to insure than a steel structure, hands down. Fire suppression systems, the fire suppression system is literally double the expense in a wood frame structure than it is in a steel structure. Time of construction, because of the multi-layers to get the fire rating, the STC ratings in the walls and in the floor and all those things, those costs are excessive, it's not there in steel construction.

You have all these things that add up over time, and then the longevity of the building, the wood frame buildings, they start to ... especially these multi-story buildings, I'm not against wood because even though I'm in the steel business, but it's about a solution, wood settles, wood cracks, wood moves, wood echoes, wood, all these things you have, a steel building is going to outlive a wood building by far and that's hands down as well. So you have to understand, so the appraised value, for instance, so maybe the whole construction is a hundred dollars a foot, but at the end of the day, maybe the wood only appraises for 150 at the end of the day. So his equitable value's here, but the steel, because of all those concepts, maybe that appraises at $250 a foot. So he has a bigger equitable value because it's steel.

These are all the things that you have to consider that most of the people in our industry, because of where we're at, we're very, I don't want to say we're shallow minded and nor are we naive, we're just not educated enough to understand how to bring that solution because we're stuck in our box, we don't think outside the box, we're too used to people coming to us, like I said earlier. And really that's not the case, we should be marketing the business differently and as a solution because that's what we are and we fit many, many solutions across the board.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Like you said, you have your own design team, your engineers, your manufacturing, which is so exciting. And what are you hearing from the design community, the architects and designers really, are they starting to embrace this or is this just still something that we really need to educate on?

Bobby Mesmer: I think we really need to educate on it still. Look, we've been around for a while, meaning the metal building industry, more and more architects are starting to embrace it, but there still needs to be more education. And it's territorial, like here in the Northeast, again, there's a good amount of metal buildings, but nowhere near the amount of buildings that you see throughout the rest of the country and so that's a big impact. And you have to ask yourself why? Because the architects design a certain way, the architects engineer a certain way, so that is a breakthrough that you got to do, you got to get into these architects and be able to show them the solution. But you have to do it intelligently, and that's part of the problem.

Again, it's not a blame game, but I do blame the manufacturers are the first ones in to try and all they're concentrating on is their spec me, I'm Mr. so-and-so manufacturer, spec me, how about spec the industry? Because competition is good, don't worry about your competition. If you're putting out a good product, you shouldn't be worried about the competition out there, spec the industry. Let me tell you a solution, you're building a school, I can make that a pre-engineered hybrid solution for you, that's more economical, faster, going to cost you less a square foot and give you the same end result at the end of the day.

We really need to do a better job in this industry to really get out there to these architects and engineers, sit them down, talk to them about their solutions, look at their projects and say to them, that project can be pre-engineered and here's how. And really sit them down and talk to them about the savings and where that all comes from, how it looks in a total package, because that's what they don't understand and so somebody has to do that for them. And part of the problem is, most of the people who are going to these architects and engineers and talking to them don't have a global understanding of the product and how you make it work. Because, again, some of the people who've been in this industry too long and they're saying, here's our product, here's a box, spec me, I think that that's a problem.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. Well, and if they aren't thinking about the whole building, how are they engaging that architect with the visuals of, I am sure there's many out there who are still thinking it's an agricultural building out in the middle of somewhere. That's not the case, when you look at how beautiful all the different patterns, everything that's going on on the siding or the cladding, the roofing, my gosh, metal buildings are so beautiful.

Bobby Mesmer: You can do so much to them that make them nice. Again, for one of our customers, we do U-Haul buildings and so U-Haul had this horrific design and so we worked with them to re-change the design and go to an IMP panel. And then they wanted this nicer facade where it's not just this box, this five-storey, indoor storage facility you see that's just ugly box standing up. Well, you can do these designs and U-Haul is implementing this where what they're doing is, we help them design this multi-tiered where it steps out four inches, steps out six inches overlay corrugated panels on the building.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Nice.

Bobby Mesmer: And so it creates this, like you stand back and you look at it and you're like, that's a really nice building. But it's just about having the concept to do it, and it did save money, it wasn't this really expensive solution. And so that's the thing, you got to have the mindset to know how to combine these things. You're starting to see now a lot more buildings, a lot of architects, especially through the Midwest, you're seeing them design buildings that are pre-engineered and then they're adding wood onto them, like nice, beautiful wood soffits and stuff like that, so you have the combination of steel and the hardwood and it looks amazing, it really, really does. But that takes the creative mind to understand what you're doing, and a lot of people, they don't want to make that effort either.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And it really needs to be put out there. So when we're talking about, and you already shared the story, which was so great about your hotel developer, but when you're really looking at these end users, the developers, the building owners, the corporations and stuff like that, I know you are going to them, but are you also hearing them requesting some of these different solutions? Or maybe they've seen it from other people or is the wood starting to spread and having as metal buildings trending with that audience?

Bobby Mesmer: I think a little bit, not as much as it could. And the reason is because I think a lot of this, and this is just from experience in the industry, a lot of this goes back to the architects because these end users and developers trust their architects. And again, this isn't a bling game, I don't want an architect who's listening to this to think, my God, he's against architects, no, that's not the case. But the architect is the first point of contact in anything that anybody does, and so there's a level of trust that the owners put into the architects to provide them a good solution. And so what happens is that's where the block comes from because then they trust that, all right, this is a solution that the architect gave me, I trust in that it's good.

Then when we start to get to know the customer, we give them the other side of it and then they say to us, all right, well take a look at this, tell me what you can do here and then we give them that option. And look, some architects that are sitting across the table in that solution, they're great, they're phenomenal, they're like, we're all in with this. Because they understand the concept that the more we take care of this customer, the more value that we provide to him and the more value we can put back in his pocket, the more projects he does and everybody wins.

And then you have the architects who sit across the table and be like, I'm the architect, this is my design, this is my thumbprint, I don't care what you have to say, you're wrong. And we've sat across the table with guys like that and we're like, I don't know what to do with that, so I'm not going to sit here and argue with you, fine. So it happens in both ways, and so it's a matter of the industry respecting everybody, you're the architect, you're a professional, I'm a building erector, building manufacturer, building engineer, I'm a professional, let's get together and make this better so we all get more work, let's not argue amongst each other and butt heads because for what, where does it get anybody?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: No.

Bobby Mesmer: Again, to reflect back on your original question, I think that they're seeing it, but they're not getting the total picture because of where it starts. So again, from us, from our standpoint as a company, we try to get in front of the end users and the developers and that's a lot of big portion of our business. And they come to us and they come to us first, I have this idea, what can I do? And then we cycle in the architect from there and it's a harmonious relationship.

And again, because now the whole team understands the concept of, just like the developer story, I told you, the hotel story, he budgeted to build five, but he built six, he didn't put money back in his pocket, everybody got paid to do a whole nother project. So that's the nature of the developer, developer's in business to continue to build because that's where his revenue comes from. And so the more you can allow him to build, the more work you're going to do and to generate. So you have to create value for yourself and you have to create value for him.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And for everyone else who's going to use that building down the road, that's the thing, it's bringing such value across the board. But one thing that you hit on just a little bit ago and that I want to talk about is really what you're seeing, because this hotel story has me, I'm just really curious, but with other trades, so as other trades are, whether they're electricians, plumbers, all of these different things that are working in that ecosystem, I'm going to put my assumption out there, Bobby and tell me if I'm wrong, but I would think they'd be thrilled at how fast a metal building can be installed, how streamlined it is, the easier. So what's some of the feedback from other trades when it comes to this growth in metal buildings?

Bobby Mesmer: I think it's both sides of the fence, in some cases, it's loved, in some cases it's hated. And there's a lot of reason behind that, so I'll give you examples that we deal with on the erection side of the business. I think when there's a job where there's masonry walls that might go up eight or 10 feet and then my metal panels go up from there, the mason are going to tell you that they hate us because we're so quick and everybody wants the mason in there first or everybody wants the mason in there second or whatever. But a lot of times they want them in there first and then they're saying, put the steel up and a lot of people do it like that. We actually do the opposite, because our guys are so quick and efficient, we tell them, mason, after we're done and let us get done, done, meaning let us get our panels on, our base trim on, let the mason infill up to the underside.

Fortunately enough, my father owned a very big masonry contracting company, I laid block growing up, brick stone and all that, so I know the business very, very well. So I'm able to meet with the customers prior, take my masonry experience when they start to complain about how they can't work the underside of my steel and I say, "yes, you can, and this is how you do it." And so it's education, it's managing expectations, so they're ones that tend to hate it because they just can't keep up.

I think the other trades, they love it because of how fast and efficient it is, because now you're getting mechanical trades in under finished roof, like we could be a third on the roof, your mechanical trades could come in and start working right behind us and we're still staying ahead, they're never catching up to us. So I think that they love it, I do think there's a flip side to that though, with the new ASHRAE codes and the insulation codes with the pro liner systems and the cavity fill systems where you're covering up the attachment points, which is the purlins that they have to normally put a C channel to. They complain a lot about that because you can't puncture the system, so now they're like, how am I attaching? And you got to use a SAMI, it's a specific drill piece that an all thread goes into right through the bottom of the purlin. Simple, easy, but some of the contractors, they never used them, they don't understand it, they think that it's an extra cost, it turns into this whole thing, so there's that dynamic.

And again too, also you work in areas where you work with somebody who's never worked with a pre-engineered building, and so they don't understand the concept. Plumbers, nothing wrong with plumbers, but plumbers tend to be lazy and what happens with that is, I know that that sounds condescending, I love all the plumbers out there, thank you for doing your job because I can't do it-

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Don't say any hate now please.

Bobby Mesmer: ... Right, I can't do it. But what I mean by that is, and we say this right to them on the job, we're like, look, your vent stubs, you have to drill from the top down and then pipe to it. These guys like to run all their piping because they're inside, nice and comfortable, it's not in the sun and this and that and then they want to drill up from the bottom and then they come up through the high rib of the roof and then now you have a major, major problem.

And so I think the other trades, I think it's back and forth, but here's the way that you work around it and I don't think enough people in our industry are doing it. Managing expectations is huge, so my favorite saying is, number one, assumptions, assumptions are the mother of all f-ups, it's just a fact, you assume, you've already screwed up. But managing expectations means that you're not making any assumptions that somebody knows, so the more time you spend educating the contractor alone, even the GC or the other trades, we should have an obligation in our industry as the erector or the building supplier to manage the expectations of what those other trades and how they work around our building. And if you're doing that, people will love the building because it simplifies it.

Now they know what to tell their people, the plumber, don't put your vent in from the bottom up, go up there, find a flat of the panel, excuse me, cut your hole, put your pipe through and then pipe to it, it saves everybody a headache, simple, easy and that's a management of expectation. How to put a roof boot on, we were typically gone and typically roof penetrations are the responsibility of others to deal with, leave the material, leave the directions on how to do it and offer. If you're still unsure, you want us to take a look at it, we'll come back and happily take a look at it for you, make that offer.

Talking about electricians, how they need to drill through and hang their shoebox lights on the outside. Where do you do that? Especially on a PBR rib panel, how do you hang that light? Where do you punch through at? Things like that, and how you seal those holes because when there's a leak and then you look behind the shoebox light and there's a hole this big for a wire that big and it's not sealed, you're like, guys, what do you want me to do?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Now we know what's wrong.

Bobby Mesmer: Yeah. So my comment to people with that is, do a better job, everybody's too worried about themselves and then it's okay to be that way, but you're too worried about yourselves and then you complain when something comes back because you didn't help the process or manage the expectation. And so that's why people hate and love it, these other trades, I think the other trades love it in a lot of cases and I think some of them hate it, but I think it's because of that expectation management. If it was done better, I think a lot of other trades would definitively love the buildings a lot more.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, and I think when you have this kind of growth plus when you have a revolutionary change in installation and speed, it takes a while to pull the industry. Construction, let's just be honest, conservative don't tend to be always really quick, but the ones who are the ones who are gaining the work and who are getting things, so finding that. And I can't believe it, we've done it again, Bobby, we are at the end of our time and I am like, we have so much more, so of course we'll be back, we didn't even touch on [inaudible 00:33:53].

Bobby Mesmer: We need to do a special seminar where it's just like an hour.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, I think we need to do that next time.

Bobby Mesmer: We should just get together in one room, you and I, a cup of coffee together and literally just hammer it out for an hour, that's what we need to do.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I think we are doing a little bit of that with Metal Con, and we're going to have some webinars on Metals Coffee Shop too, but I agree, just this conversation. So I just want to finish that thought with what you're saying, and I love that of really education being the key, education whether it's the trades, the architects, the owners, the industry as a whole and then working together as a metal construction industry to really bring that up, man, I love that, Bobby, that's perfect.

Bobby Mesmer: Yeah, there definitely needs to be a little bit more, in my opinion and I witnessed this and I could tell you this for another time, but there needs to be a little bit more support and camaraderie amongst the trades, that has definitely changed over the years and we need to bring that back in order to make our business side successful.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, exactly. Construction overall, and just getting the right people. We're going to have one on the trades in the future, we're going to have another one on M&A, on mergers and acquisitions. Although I want to tell everyone, if you're listening to this one right now, you need to listen to our earlier podcast that Bobby and I have done, we had a whole one just on mergers and acquisitions, so interesting. And we are also going to be, like I said, watch for Bobby and I are going to be on Metal Con Live and we're going to be bringing the same hour long presentation to the industry and we'll also be having another state of the metal erector industry as we look into the fall too, but you're going to have a lot of podcasts in between. So Bobby, thank you so much.

Bobby Mesmer: Heidi, thank you, I always love being on your show, it's great to see you.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: My gosh, it's so great, we'll just keep going, this is all there is to it. Thank you all for listening, this is MetalCast, you can listen to all the MetalCasts on Metal Coffee Shop under the read, listen, watch or on your favorite podcast channel and be sure to subscribe and set those notifications. This is also a video cast, so you can find this on YouTube or any of your favorite outlets, maybe you never know, you might even find us on Spotify someday. So Bobby, thank you again.

Bobby Mesmer: Awesome. Thank you so much, see you everybody.

Outro: Thank you, and we'll see you all again next time on MetalCast.