Slippery Slope - Preventing Rooftop Avalanches - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Mindy Dahlquist of TRA Snow and Sun. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the recording.

Intro: Welcome everybody to this MetalTalk from MetalCoffeeShop. My name's Karen Edwards. And today our topic is really appropriate timing given the weather conditions that are going on in the Pacific Northwest right now in some of our snowier states and that's slippery slope preventing rooftop avalanches. Thank you to our friends at TRA Snow & Sun for being here to talk about this really, really important topic. And just before we dive in a little bit of housekeeping. This is being recorded and it will be available on demand on Metalcoffeeshop.com usually within one to two days so that you can watch it again, you can share it with colleagues or coworkers that you think need to hear this important information. That being said, let me introduce our guest, Mindy Dahlquist. Welcome, Mindy.

Mindy Dahlquist: Thank you.

Karen Edwards: It's so nice to see you.

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely. Thanks, Karen. Well, I am Mindy Dahlquist, I am the business development manager at TRA Snow & Sun, I've been with them for almost four years. My background comes from business development ... The car business originally. I don't know why that came out. And also snow management as well. So it's been really cool to use all of the things that I've learned over the years and be able to educate other people and help contractors know how to solve issues when they're dealing with snow on the roof.

Karen Edwards: Thank you for being here. I do have the chat open so if you have questions feel free to drop them in the chat, say hello, let us know where you're watching from. We will have time at the end to go through any of your questions. Mindy, what happens when snow moves from a roof?

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely. Well, there's a lot of things that can occur when the snow does start to move on that roof. Damages to the roofing product itself is, obviously, a major concern when you're talking about opening it up for leaks and intruders of any shape or sort of that type. But then you also have your surrounding structures. So a lot of the calls that we get with someone who is allowing that snow to shed off of the roof ... The issues that they see are smashing solar panels, neighboring solar panels, the neighbor's fence, their dog or their deck enclosure. All of those types of things can definitely give way when you're talking about the snow and ice sliding off of the roof. And then you also have premature aging. You're allowing that snow and ice to freeze to your roofing material and then just slide off at any given time. So, of course, there's forces and a lot of motion that comes with that. And then also that weight that's sitting up there that whole time until it does decide to ... Those conditions are right for it to move off of the roof.

And then the most serious thing, Karen, that we see with rooftop avalanches is definitely death and injury due to those rooftop avalanches. Whether the snow is being removed off of the roof or staying on, both of those are very dangerous situations if there's not any type of system there to help catch the snow or to prevent it from moving. Unfortunately, OSHA does put out statements every single year just stressing the dangers of getting on the roof, when there's snow and ice up there, to try to remove that snow. And then there's also so many dangers of just allowing that snow to come sliding off of there. Depending on the location, the weight of semis coming off the roof at any given point. And that's not some weight you want to be falling onto your front porch.

Even in the Midwest where we both are, you have ice as more of a concern. And ice can be just as deadly and dangerous when it is sliding off of these metal roofs and there's not much friction there to keep it on the roof at any time.

Karen Edwards: Especially the sloped portions of that roof. I've seen a lot of pictures of damage that has been caused by the snow and ice moving off the roof and it's incredible the destruction that comes from it. Because you think of snow, it's pretty, it's fluffy, it's white, but once it starts piling up that's when we start to get into problems.

Mindy Dahlquist: Yes. I think as contractors we really need to be aware of the differing areas of snow and how elevation changes that as well. If you are dealing in icy regions, that's something that you need to consider. If you're dealing in mountain regions, it's a huge consideration. And those snow loads can vary from 20 pounds per square foot to 460 pounds per square foot. So if you're building exactly the same in both of those locations there's an issue.

Karen Edwards: That's for sure. And one of the things, that when we were talking the other day, you mentioned that I want to make note of is there's no code requirements for ... That just seems crazy to me. That's not true, in Europe there are, right?

Mindy Dahlquist: There are code requirements in Europe for snow retention. And there's starting to be talks of it in the United States in some locations. Lake Tahoe, California is a great example of that. They know that they have a problem with snow, they have the heaviest snow loads in the country and so they design with that in mind, they build with that in mind. But that doesn't always mean that the municipalities are able to have that code or standard to reference. Because at this time there's just nothing for them to say, "Okay, if we put five brackets above a doorway, is that going to hold back thousands of pounds of snow?"

Or in my area in Ohio I have a metal roof so if I put one fence along the eve is that going to be enough for the ice issues that I'm going to run into? We'll get into engineering and some of that, but that's why that really comes into play. And that's why we are here for the contractors to be able to bounce their questions off of, get that engineering and help take that liability off. Because even though there's no code or standard, if we're not doing our due diligence it definitely makes us suable in the end as contractors.

Karen Edwards: Wow, yeah. Definitely rely on the experts and the support because a lot goes into designing these systems so that they'll work properly which we're going to get into. But let's talk first about fence systems on a metal roof as we're looking at there in the picture.

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely. So there are many different types of fence systems that can be utilized. On metal specifically, it'll depend on what panel type you are utilizing as to what fence type you would want to use. In that standing scene you definitely want to utilize a clamp-on system so that's going to be either for your snap lock panels or your mechanical seams so your single lock or your double lock. That's where the clamp-on systems come in. Those, for our company, are going to be titled as a C21Z or a C22Z. And the extra number just means how many pipes are going to be in it so how high of a system that you're looking for. Both of those are going to be a very strong system, but they can only be as strong as your seam profile is itself.

So that's where your engineering comes really strongly into play. You have to make sure that you're utilizing enough snow retention on those panels to make sure that the weight is evenly distributed otherwise you can run into issues with that. So that's very, very important on making sure that you're having that proper installation and the correct amount of product up on the roof as well. For your exposed fastener panels like your PBR panels, those types of things, you're going to want to use more of like a deck mount system. Because you don't have anything to clamp onto you would actually be going into structure. So with those types of systems, you would be going into your rafter or your truss or purlins. It just has to go directly into structure. And you would also be pre-drilling if you're using any lag bolt as well to make sure you're not splitting that rafter or truss.

There's a lot of different options available. Other manufacturers have different types of products for these as well. So it's just important to make sure you know that you're using the right product for your roof. You don't want to buy a whole bunch of fences that are deck mount fences and now you have to penetrate a roof that has no penetrations on it. So do your due diligence, make sure you have the right product for your panel and your project and then go from there.

Karen Edwards: Yeah, that's so important. And probably one of the hardest parts is making sure that everything's going to work together as it's intended to be in choosing the right system. But that's where you come in, Mindy, right?

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely,

Karen Edwards: Okay. Maybe a fence style is not the solution for that roof, what are the other options?

Mindy Dahlquist: So there are other options for metal products when you do not want the bar system. I call the bar systems a little meatier. I know that's not the best term but they really are. They are a lot more noticeable from the ground than what a bracket is. But brackets are still very, very strong, they are a very adequate system and they work well with an exposed fastener panel. I would not utilize what we call an H bracket. I would not utilize that on a standing seam panel where you have the ribs to attach to because then you are penetrating through that roof. That's not something we want to do unless necessary. So in that instance we have what's called a deco guard which acts like a pad-style clamp-on system instead of the bars. So there's still options if you're not wanting this big drastic system all across your eaves. The brackets are just going to work a little bit differently and hold that mass of snow across the entirety of the roof so they're usually staggered throughout the whole roof instead of just along the eave.

Karen Edwards: Okay. I mean, the main function is we want the snow to stay put and naturally gently, gradually disappear and not slide off the roof. So we're talking a lot about metal here but there's other roof types that-

Mindy Dahlquist: Oh, absolutely, yes. I mean, snow retention can be utilized on almost all roof types. And, basically, the goal is just to allow that snow to freeze three inches, at least, into place into that snow mass as long as there's that much there. And if there's not, the snow that is there will freeze to those brackets or to that fence and allow it to stay in place. It also does allow for energy efficiency since snow does definitely have an R-value. I mean, if you've ever went camping in the middle of the winter you know that the snow is normally utilized in those situations. It's a European concept to making sure that you're utilizing that snow to help increase your R value but also to make sure that you're stopping those damages and dangers that we discussed earlier.

Karen Edwards: Okay. We've talked a little bit about the different types and the different types of roofs, but how do you know, if you're working on a project when snow retention is necessary?

Mindy Dahlquist: With this you should definitely be working with a manufacturer. I wouldn't say you have to work specifically with us, that's not how my conversation will ever go. But definitely work closely with a manufacturer on snow retention. I mean, we've received takeoffs for a bus stop in Florida. And that's when we're calling you and going, "Why in the world do you think you need snow retention in Tampa? This doesn't seem necessary." But there's also a lot of cases where we've had those conversations and there's a reason that they are receiving snow retention. It's a give-and-take conversation that we learn things as we go as well. We have snow retention actually on the Mercedes-Benz Stadium in Atlanta, Georgia. Not a location that most people would consider snow retention for, but it was due to a lawsuit of snow coming off the Dallas, Texas stadium. Sometimes snow retention is put in places that it may not be as necessary.

AT&T, when they purchased the Dallas, Texas stadium or had their name put on it, there becomes a liability there that becomes much larger when you are a larger corporation. Keeping those things in mind is very important. If you are a very suable name then it's a very important thing for you to be considering. If a death or disaster does happen in those scenarios it becomes very messy on why it wasn't considered. Otherwise, as far as other locations that don't really receive snow, we would just tell you that it's most likely not necessary whatsoever. But we do offer free engineering. So what we could do is run that through with all of the information from your project to just determine how much snow retention we would recommend and if that's something that you would like to do as an owner or as an installer.

Karen Edwards: It's funny that you mentioned the stadiums because Monday night's football game, a piece of metal fell from inside the roof of the Dallas Stadium. Taking extra precautions is always a good thing I think. But I want to talk a little bit about that second bullet point there. What does testing for snow retention look like? How do you test for that?

Mindy Dahlquist: We as a manufacturer test every single product that we have. We test it going into sheathing, we test it with roofing products. Obviously, we're not able to get on your roof and run up the weight and see much weight one snow bracket can hold on Karen Edwards roof. That's just not how testing can work. So we have to create the environment that is occurring on the roof, the best of our abilities. So not all manufacturers that make snow retention test their products at all. I mean, you can buy plastic brackets at Home Depot and hope that that adhesive stays on your roof. But, unfortunately, when we're talking about the amount of weight and the different temperatures that are happening on the roof, you need to be relying on the fastener types and on that material to be able to hold back that type of weight and that amount of snow.

If a manufacturer is not testing their products they would have no clue what weight that bracket can actually hold or that fence can hold. And then where does that system fail? So if it can no longer hold the weight is it ripping your entire roof off? Is it ripping a fastener out? There's so many things that need to be considered when you're adding additional ... Any type of accessory to your roof. So with that consideration we're able to determine what that fail point is of the system, what it looks like and make sure that we're taking the safety precautions to protect the liability of our contractors that are installing our product.

Karen Edwards: That's scary to put something up there that you don't know is going to perform. And then like you said, where does it fail? I mean, it could be taking the roof with it and then that becomes an incredibly costly repair and potential harm for objects and people below.

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely. I was talking to a ... I believe it was an architect in Colorado, in Durango and they had just had a death of a five-year-old girl last year that the snow came off of a roof. It had snow retention on the roof but it was like one tiny little piece over a doorway. And it's forgotten about that the snow is glaciated on the roof so you have a frozen huge mass of snow. So if you're just putting one little bar up above a doorway that can definitely get ripped off by the weight. And that's exactly what happened.

And I had asked one of the local contractor ... Or one of the local architects I said, "So how do you engineer your systems?" And they responded to me that they allow the roofer to do the engineering of a snow retention system. So that's where it gets very tricky. Because a roofer is going to know the roofing product, what sheathing, what fastener they're using, but they're just unable to know the other details of the snow retention like what amount of weight it can hold back or what does happen if this fails. And so it's very, very important to make sure you're including your manufacturer in those conversations.

Karen Edwards: When you say free engineering, you're going to develop the system for that roof and that includes the number, the placement, all those factors, right?

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely, yeah. That's all included. And then we also have an outside engineering firm that stamps our numbers as well to give us our own covering of hey, we've done our due diligence. This isn't just numbers that we've pulled out of the air, this is information that we've tested and tried. And then have had other companies, that are non-biased to us completely, test and try to ensure that we are putting our best foot forward for our customers. So I think that's really cool that that is available. And then we also have wet stamping, and much more engineering things available at a cost. But everything else we keep entirely free which is very rare anymore when it comes to any quoting beyond a basic price. I think it's really cool that we offer that for free.

Karen Edwards: And that's really helpful because like you said, the roofing contractor is going to know the system that they're installing, the roof stuff. But this is something maybe that they just don't do every day.

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely.

Karen Edwards: All right. So let's talk about what factors could change the design layout of the snow retention system.

Mindy Dahlquist: So slope of the roof is, obviously, going to be a very large one. We actually manufacture a single-ply fence. And I've been asked before "Why would you manufacture a single-ply fence? Snow can't slide off of a flat roof." Well, for drainage purposes there's not very many fully flat roofs, first of all. And it's also important to remember the flatter your roof is the easier it is for that snow to already stay on the roof. And so what happens is you create a larger buildup of the snow, and then you start having temperature changes that create that melting effect. Freeze-thaw cycles are happening, and you can most definitely see movement of that snow no matter your slope of your roof. So if you have a 12/12 you're most likely holding a lot less snow on your roof than if you have a 4/12 slope.

The slope of your roof is, obviously, going to change the amount of snow retention that is necessary. The steeper the slope it is it's going to be harder to hold that snow on the roof, but it can also be much more crucial to hold on both levels for the amount of snow that you'll have on a lower slope but the amount of snow that can slide off much quicker at an easier timeframe with the higher slope. Your Sheathing, obviously, is going to make a difference because that is what you are fastening into with a bracket-type system because your strength of that sheathing can most definitely play a big part there. If you're utilizing a fence system, your sheathing type isn't going to make as much of a difference. But then with your fence system then your rib type and height will be much more important along with your panel width.

Ground snow load will always be crucial. That is how much snow are we talking? We could worst-case scenario be holding on this roof which, as I mentioned earlier, can be a very drastic difference. I'm noticing issues in ground snow loads as well. This is something that is going to be an upcoming concern for contractors is a lot of these high desired areas across the country are keeping their numbers very, very low because they want it to be very affordable for people to move there. Some areas in Colorado, they have snow loads at 10,000 feet that are 100 pounds per square foot which is not realistic, they are very high snow load areas. But when you're not building for those proper areas for that snow load it can run into major problems because now you're talking about the amount of snow that is going to fall and you're not building the structure ...

Not even just the roof but you're not building the structure to be able to withstand that weight.
So that's another good reason it's smart to work with a manufacturer on this because we're able to see those issues across the country and see some of those trends. So when we have someone calling us from that area we can say, "What snow load are you using for this building? And what snow are you actually seeing?" And to be able to make sure that not only your snow retention system is going to stay put but that your structure itself is ready to be able to withstand that weight.

So your product strength, obviously, I'll dive into that. That basically just means how much weight can that individual device hold back? So if we change that, that can most definitely change your entire layout. And then anytime you have an upper roof that sheds down to a lower roof it definitely changes your layout because now you add force. That snow is falling from somewhere else onto something else and so it becomes much more dangerous for impacts and damages that way. So usually wanting to retain that upper roof along with the lower roof to stop any of that sliding and that impact into that roofing material.

Karen Edwards: Wow, that's scary what you said about the snow loads and that they're not building to the right number. I'm just curious, from my perspective, when someone contacts and you have that conversation, is that a learning moment for them and they're like "Oh?" Or it's like "Well, this is just what we do here and that's what we're going to keep doing."

Mindy Dahlquist: So it really depends. I mean, we have tools that we are able to utilize to determine areas, ground snow loads. And a lot of times those are put out by colleges like technical and STEM-focused colleges. And we find that those numbers are a lot more accurate and a lot more ... Maybe not even accurate but a lot more understanding of elevation, and differences and more willing to change. Where the local building jurisdictions, they don't want to increase a weight that will then cause them to increase the level of sheathing or the level of whatever structural material that they're utilizing as well. Because, obviously, to build a st sturdier structure it costs more money. So when you're looking into ski resort areas, into areas that are wanting to promote visitors and wanting people to come in and build billion dollar villas, of course, they're wanting to make it affordable for those people that want to have those structures.

So it is very, very important for contractors to have that understanding of we need to do our own due diligence and make sure that we believe that this structure is sound. If you're getting on a roof and you feel like it's not structurally sound, there needs to be a paper trail of that conversation. Because otherwise when something happens it comes back to everybody else that's been involved.

If you're a contractor and you've had a conversation with the ownership and with the architect, "Hey, I think we need snow retention on this roof" and they are denying it, you need to make sure that you're covering yourself and your company and have that paper trail of that conversation.

Because otherwise when it comes down to a lawsuit, the first person they look at when there's no snow retention is "Well, the roofer didn't install it." And then the roofer is going to say, "Well, the architect told me no." And the architect's going to say, "Well, you're the roofer, I'm not the roofer." It's very important to make sure that you're having those conversations and keeping that receipt because you never know when you may need it.

Karen Edwards: I mean, we live in such a litigious society anymore, everybody sues everybody for anything. So yeah, protect yourself for sure.

Mindy Dahlquist: And as far as roofers, I feel like they definitely see a very large brunt of that type of conversation so it's very important to make sure that you're covering yourself.

Karen Edwards: Good information. Okay. So let's talk about just covering portions of a roof and some related concerns to that.

Mindy Dahlquist: So covering portions of a roof can be very problematic. As I mentioned on the municipality side, when they're wanting to standardize snow retention it's easy to say, "Cover a doorway, cover a walkway. We want to make sure that everyone is safe but we don't really care if the snow sheds along the whole side of the building or on the side of our garage or whatever the location may be." You do need to be very cautious while only doing a partial install of snow retention, mostly with brackets. So brackets need to be installed in a staggered pattern and they are made to stop the snow from ever moving, they're not made to stop moving snow where fences can take a little bit more of that impact of snow.

But it's very important that the entire run of that roof is covered with snow retention otherwise that glaciated mass that I discussed earlier, you've got that whole big piece of snow. And if you only have a clamp on snow fence on, let's say, four ribs running across a 20-foot span, that 20-foot span of snow is being held by those four ribs of snow retention. So it's all frozen in place. It doesn't matter that you only put it right here. All of this mass is trying to be held by those four ribs, and if something does give way there it most definitely could rip your ribs right off of that roof. Then you're exposing your roof, you're having a whole lot of issues.

I have always said, snow retention is not something you halfway do. You either do a system or do not include it at all and assume that you are going to have risks. Because it is not something that should just be two bars here, and a bar here and a couple brackets here. It should be a full system. Let's say you want to cover your front and your back of your roof but you don't cover your sides, that's completely different. You still have a decent weight distribution and you also have made sure that that's not going to rip away from anywhere. But if you're covering just little small portions here and there, you most definitely can see damages due to that.

Karen Edwards: I'm thinking to myself as we're talking about all the stores or shopping centers that maybe have a sloped covering where you walk in the doors. I'm going to start looking a lot now to see what snow protection is up there because I don't-

Mindy Dahlquist: You'll definitely notice it. And you'll also start to notice the signs. Mostly if you travel out west at all, a lot of the areas ... It's crazy to see the signs that say, "Caution, snow falls ahead." And you're looking up and you're like I've been standing here for 15 minutes and I just now notice this sign. So if snow was going to be falling off of this roof it would've already smashed me by now. A lot of those cautionary things of oh, snow falls up above or take caution ice falls off the roof, those in a lawsuit are just going to say, "Hey, I know that I had a big problem and I put up a sign hoping that everyone could outrun the snow." So yeah, you will definitely notice that.
You'll notice plastic brackets that have been ... I always say they're great lawn ornaments.

Because I take my kids to a pediatrician's office in an area that does not receive a lot of snow and all of their plastic brackets are laying in the landscape around ... Plastic is not the best option for a roof, we all know that. And so with that it just takes a lot of the damage and the brunt of that. So you'll start to notice those types of things after this conversation and you'll think of me so you're welcome.

Karen Edwards: Thinking of Mindy. We don't have this on one of the slides but I just wanted to ask, are you seeing ... Because when we're thinking of snow retention, most people were thinking of ski areas, Colorado, you mentioned Lake Tahoe before. But I'm in Pennsylvania, right? We sometimes have winters where we get a lot of snow. Last year we had hardly any snow at all. So are people in those areas that sometimes they get a lot, sometimes they don't, are they starting to think more about this or nah, it doesn't snow that much here we don't really need it?

Mindy Dahlquist: I think it's becoming a more well-known concept nationwide, even in areas where it's not as prevalent like the ski resort areas. I just moved back to my home state of Ohio and I am seeing much more snow retention. Prior to working in snow retention and snow management in Utah, I did not know what snow retention was. And I would have never known that a bar across the eve of the roof was something that I should possibly consider on my roof. So I think there's just more social media and internet knowledge about snow coming off the roof. We all have also seen a lot of fail videos on Facebook and those types of things of people trying to remove snow off the roof and it coming down on them.

And so I think there's just a little bit more hey, how do we fix this? And another one is metal roofing has just taken off. With the growth of metal roofing, there's also a lot of known concerns when it comes to snow being on a metal roof and how dangerous that can be. I would definitely agree that this is something that is more thought about now than it has been in years prior. The snow retention manufacturers that are out there, we're all sprinkled in different areas of the country and I think we've all grown and so that helps bring it together. Where before we had major gaps in the market of areas that probably need snow retention but there just wasn't someone there to supply it to them. So I think that helps as well.

Karen Edwards: Yeah, definitely. Okay. So let's talk about training. And you guys offer it so I ... Great, I'm doing this roof, I know it's going to need snow retention, you guys are going to help me design the system. How do I learn how to install it?

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely. This is my bread and butter. TRA cares about training so much that they pay me to do this all the time. It is something that I am very passionate about. I am able to train architects, I'm able to train contractors. I do hands-on training, I do web-based training. I'm actually meeting with Brava Synthetic Tile tomorrow and doing a training for their team. I do trainings for large companies, small companies. I don't care the size. If you have specific training needs that you are wanting it to be geared specifically towards your products then I can do that. Basically, you would just contact us. I mean, we are offering live training sessions. I think we are planning on doing three or four of them this year. One even in Canada. As we grow we are really trying to focus on education. Because we can sell something all day long but if there's not a end process to this, it's not being installed properly or not being utilized properly it will never matter. So we're wanting to make sure that the information is out there.

We have some media books that are made, they're like video brochures, for roofers to be able to take with them. They're a salesperson, they're sitting down with a consultation with a client and they don't need to be the snow retention expert. They're able to sit there and just flip through the pages. It changes the video as it goes and allows them to just, basically, teach the homeowner why they would do it or the building owner why they would do it. What types of systems are available to them and the differences? How to just walk them through that process so that the contractor isn't forced to sell another item? It's just this is available, this is the information and move on from there. I am not a good salesperson, I don't try to be. I try to focus solely on educating people and making sure that the information is available when it's wanted.

Karen Edwards: Well said, well said. So one of the things that matters, especially if someone's investing in a metal roof, right, that they're not inexpensive. I know they last a long time, and they're growing in popularity and there's many things that we love about metal as a roof. But aesthetics are really important, right? So talk about that with the customization and I want something that's going to look good.

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely. And I think this picture is the perfect one here for this. We manufacture in copper so that's not something that you come across very often, but when you do it's big money. If someone has a copper roof they don't want random attachments that are not copper on the roof. So it's able to give that same copper look. It, obviously, is made in a thicker material because the copper is much more flexible, not as strong. So it is something that is available. We have 50 standard colors that we can match to. And then we can also get into other outside custom colors as well. With how big of a presence that I have tried to make in the industry, it's forgotten how small of a company we are sometimes. We're 25 people. As a full manufacturing, advertising, all of that ... Training, finance, everybody, 25 people and less. And so it's really cool for us to be able to offer these custom works, and custom fabricating and things for our customers. It's cool to see.

And then it also makes the conversation a lot easier with the customers well because ... For the roofer because then they're just able ... You have a copper roof, you want a copper snow retention system, it's available. Or, you have a textured black, we have a textured black. Trying to make sure that we have those things available and make it as aesthetically pleasing as possible.

Karen Edwards: That's great. I love the customization. And I love that you have so many standard colors. Wow, that's a lot, 50. Okay. So let's talk for just a little bit about heat tape. How's that going to work? Heat tape is melting the snow, is that ... Are they going to conflict with each other? How does that work?

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely. So it's actually interesting. Some of the customers that we work very closely with are heat cable installers and heat cable companies. First of all, it gives them something else to install. It allows them to build their tools in their belt and just have something else that ... Okay, maybe heat cable isn't the best option on this roof, let's take a look at this. But there are some concerns usually that come with installation of heat cable and snow retention together. Just like you mentioned, one is heating it up and one is wanting it to be frozen.

Karen Edwards: Yes.

Mindy Dahlquist: Obviously, with heat cable, I mean, you are running the risk of just heating the outside. You are trying to keep something warm that is in a very cold environment, very wet environment and can have its own issues there. I am not a heat cable specialist, I don't attempt to be. But something that I do know is when heat cable and snow retention are together they do need to have space between them. I have seen it. I have seen where a installer does not have the space to put heat cable or does not have a clip to install it and so they're just running it around your snow retention devices. That is the concern. Understanding that this is a electricity source that you are conducting heat with and you are attaching it to a conductive metal material that is now creating more heat. So not doing that, basically.

Making sure that you do have six, 12, as many inches as you can from that space where your heat cable starts and then having your snow retention up above that. So if you still do want heat cable or heat tape in the gutters or right above the gutters, that is something that you definitely can do. We see it very often and, honestly, it looks really nice. It keeps that crisp line right there where the heat cable is and then keeps that snowpack right on the head wall and up above it. So it does help keeping it look very, very clean. As long as they're separate from each other it will work perfectly fine. If you start mixing the two, combining them together it's just defeating the purpose of both systems.

Karen Edwards: It seemed like it so I'm glad we talked about that. Okay. So let's talk about where contractors can find your products.

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely. Well, obviously, through RoofersCoffeeShop, MetalCoffeeShop, any of those on the directories there. I mean, we have a website that you can go to it's just trasnowandsun.com. I mean, we all have a gazillion ways that we can be contacted now. I mean, you can call my cell phone, you can email me, you can text, you can do any of those things. You can stop by our address in American Fork, Utah. I will not be there but tell them I said hey. And all of those things. We try to be as available as possible to our customers. And we're just making sure that we are still very, very quick with our response and handling these projects as fast as possible for you.

Karen Edwards: Excellent. Okay. So we do have just a couple of questions that we'll go through here. This was a while back. When we were talking about determining the snow loads, and you mentioned that ... Using the colleges and some of those systems. Where do you go to determine snowfall? Is that similar? Are you getting the information from the same place?

Mindy Dahlquist: The reason that this calculation is utilized is because we have to have something to test off of. We have to have some as universal number as possible to be able to utilize for testing. And so that is why we use ground snow load. A lot of architects and things would utilize a roof snow load. But the problem with that is you are focusing on allowing that snow to stay on the roof. So when I'm having those early conversations with architects, I am letting them know that roof snow load is great, design snow load is great but you are considering holding that snow up so the slope of the roof no longer matters on how much snow you were planning on holding. And you want to be looking at worst-case scenario because you want to make sure that that system will hold that snow and will maintain it on the roof. So ground snow load is what is utilized to be able to determine those numbers.

Obviously your building standards since the mid-1970s have included ground snow load which is also ... When we talked the other day and you had said, "It's always been nailed into our heads that we want to get the snow off the roof." A lot of that is a very Midwest thought as well because a lot of our structures are much older. And so we're not wanting to hold snow on a roof that was built prior to '70s because there were no considerations for the weight of snow being utilized at those times. Ground snow load is what we use and it is going to be a larger number usually than what a roof load or a snowfall would look like. Snowfalls are usually calculated in inches where a snow load is going to be calculated in pounds per square foot.

Karen Edwards: Okay. Next question. What is engineered for good aesthetics on metal shingles?

Mindy Dahlquist: So I think what they're asking is what's going to look the best and function the best on a metal shingle. I think a bracket system works very, very well in any type of shingle application, metal included. We have a D bracket. It just is going to depend on your exposure of your product. So how much of that shingle is actually shown on the roof and how much of it is covered to which product you would use? You also still have fence options. So a deck mount fence that's going into structure would most definitely be an option when you're dealing with a metal shingle as well. So both of those are great options it just depends on what aesthetic you're looking for, if you're wanting to have that bar or if you're wanting more of that pad style camouflaged along the entirety of the roof.

Karen Edwards: And I will go back one slide real quick. So you can contact Mindy and send her pictures or your design and she can help you figure out what's going to look best on a metal tile roof.

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely. And I don't think our email is on there, but sales@traSnowandsun is going to be the best way to send any roof plan. And then we can always go from there on determining what product and what needs you have.

Karen Edwards: Excellent. Email is the best, all right. That looks like we've addressed all of the questions that I see out here. So I just want to thank you, Mindy. This was super educational and informative, I learned a lot. And, hopefully, those out there watching this or watching on-demand will benefit from this as well. Thank you so much.

Mindy Dahlquist: Absolutely. Thank you.

Outro: All right. As I mentioned, this is going to be on-demand on our website within one to two days so go on out there and check it out and share with anybody who needs to learn a little more about snow retention. And we hope to see you on a future installment of MetalTalk. Thank you, everybody. Bye-bye.