Metal Maintenance: Using Service Calls to Grow Business - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Tim Overstreet from Gaco and Tom Potaro of Ntec Systems. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the recording.

Intro: All right. Hi, everyone and welcome to this episode of MetalTalk from MetalCoffeeShop.
My name is Karen Edwards. I'm your host today and we're going to be talking all about metal maintenance, service calls, how you can grow your business and some things just considerations, I think, when you're installing metal as a roofing system. Thank you to our friends at Gaco for sponsoring this episode and for coming up with these awesome guests. I'd like to welcome Tim Overstreet and Tom Portaro. Thanks for being here, guys.

Tom Portaro: Glad to be here.

Tim Overstreet: Anytime, Karen. Anything we can do.

Karen Edwards: Awesome. Okay, so before I let them introduce themselves, little bit of housekeeping. First of all, this webinar is being recorded and it will be available on MetalCoffeeShop within one to two business days, definitely by Friday, it might be up tomorrow, so you can share it. If you think this is a topic that you really learned a lot and you want to share it with other folks in your company, feel free to do so. It will be on our website.

We do have the chat open, so feel free to say hi and tell us where you're watching from and if you have questions, you can use either the Q&A function or drop them in the chat. We will do a Q&A at the end because we've got a lot of great information and we want to make sure that we get through it all. All right, so let's get started. Tim, welcome and please introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you.

Tim Overstreet: Hey. Thanks guys for your time. My name is Tim Overstreet. I work with Gaco and ER systems. I did get a late start to roofing as my first career was in the military. After retiring, of course, I had to figure out exactly what I was going to do when I grew up. So here we are. I'm in the roofing industry.

I've worked on the roofing contractor side of the business as an estimator and as a project manager. I've also worked in distribution as an outside sales rep up here in Nashville. All that current experience brought me to being a position as a manufacturer sales and tech rep for Gaco and ER systems. At the current time, I cover Gaco in East Tennessee, Georgia and North Carolina and I've been with them for about five years.

Karen Edwards: Thank you, Tim. All right. Tom, how about you?

Tom Portaro: Hey there. I'm Tom Portaro. I am the owner and managing member of NTEC Systems. We are an exclusive roof restoration company. Got a jaded history across a lot of different things, but I am an engineer from Georgia Tech. I've been doing this for about 24 years in the coating restoration world. Glad to be here and looking forward to it.

Karen Edwards: Thanks for being here and I love the military connection there. Thank you for your service, Tim and for your work with the navy, Tom. Okay. Let's talk about metal roofs and some damage that metal roofs might sustain, and I know that... Well, Tim, why don't you just start us off. I'll let you take this one.

Tim Overstreet: Absolutely. Metal roofs are by far the best substrate or the longest lasting substrate that you can ever use in a roofing application. Many people think of it as the last roof you'll ever put on, and all this is true. Metal roofs are definitely not going to degrade the same way that a single ply or an asphalt roof will. But of course, there are considerations. The environment can cause the color to fade, you've got environmental damage that can happen and then of course, you've got rust.

Typically speaking, the main issues that a metal roof are going to sustain are going to be aesthetic, but the main issues that are going to cause leaks would be storm damage or issues related to solar shock or thermal expansion or possibly having trades up on the roof. Most of those items can be fixed with proper restoration, but it is not damaged. You generally are not going to have to do a complete tear off like you do with single ply. Tom, do you want to add anything to that?

Tom Portaro: Yeah. From our point of view as restoration contractors, metal is the baseline. It's the low-hanging fruit, if you will. They're great candidates for restorations to the point that the substrates have a really long lifespan, they're designed to be up there for a long time. So the problems that we see with metal roofing are really well-solved with the restoration, with proper maintenance. That's why we're really excited about today's show and really getting into this and making some sense of it for the audience.

Karen Edwards: Yeah, because metal roofing has really seen a lot of growth. It's becoming more popular, it's becoming more requested. There's a lot of things people like about metal and there's a lot... Look at that beautiful home with the metal roof. It's got that great aesthetic. But there's things that come along with maximizing that lifespan of that metal roof. Tim, when we were talking the other day, you had mentioned that there's three key things that are key to having your roof have its maximum lifespan.

Tim Overstreet: This is general with all roofs. Any roof that you have is going to need to be inspected, it's going to need to be kept clean and free of debris and it's going to need maintenance. When you're trying to maximize a roof life... And this is just like anything else that we have in life. Let's think about... You don't expect a car to last forever without changing the oil. An 80,000-mile tire is not going to last forever if you don't rotate the tires. Well, likewise, a roof is not going to last forever if you don't maintain it.

One of those key things being regular inspections. If trades are going to be on your roof, you want to get up there, take a look at what they possibly have done to your roof, make sure that your gutters are clean, things of that nature. Be ahead of problems. If you can be proactive as opposed to reactive in the metal roofing industry, you're going to have a lot more success.

Karen Edwards: So if you can be proactive, you should be. But how many of us really do that?
Tom, you spoke to this a little bit the other day about when you get brought in, what's the situation?

Tom Portaro: That is part of the problem. Building owners, you've got a metal roof. In your mind, your mind says, "I've got this bulletproof forever roof and so I don't do the maintenance, I don't do the inspections. It's a metal roof. For crying out loud, what could ever happen to it?" As contractors, when we're called in, we hope and pray that we're called in at a point where we can actually help them. But rarely, are we called in as a preventative maintenance call. This is party to our daily things. Hopefully, we get called on a leak call or something benign. We get a chance to look at these roofs before they get too far down the line. But again, when your owners, their mindsets, "I've got a metal roof, there's really nothing to do," and that's not true. But again, as contractors, we're only notified when there's a problem, when we've got a fire we've got to put out.
That's just the reality of it and more so in metal than really anything else.

Karen Edwards: Because we have sold metal as that lifelong roof and so people just tend to not think about it. Is that what you see mostly?

Tom Portaro: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'd liken it to, again, not to wear out the car analogy. You buy a new car, it's got a five-year, whatever, 100,000-mile warranty, that doesn't mean that you don't have any maintenance. That doesn't mean that you get to ignore it.
But the mindset for building owners is exactly that. "I've got a metal roof. I can't have any problems. What could possibly go wrong?"

Again, as contractors, rarely are we called out to do things like, "Hey, I just thought you should look at our roof." It's always under the guise of, "I've got a problem, I've got a leak, I've got an issue." And therein lies the point we're up on the roof because there is something that's ultimately wrong.

Karen Edwards: Because if I call you to come out and check out my roof, then I'm spending money. And if I'm not thinking about it and nothing's wrong, I'm not spending money. But I think the analogy or what they need to think about here is that spending a little bit of money now prevents spending a lot of money later. Let's talk about what providing maintenance to customers looks like. Tom, maybe you can get us started from your point of view when you're called out for an issue.

Tom Portaro: Right. Well, it's twofold. In my opinion, we've got two different systems here. We've got a situation where we have a client, maybe they own multiple buildings, maybe they're just an institutional client to us as contractors. Again, here to the point like that, it's always a great conversation to talk about this relationship, to say, "Hey, listen, I'm going to go look at your roof, do a quick maintenance, a quick look around inspection." That's not a big time task. It's not a big time draw for us as contractors to walk around on a metal roof. Really simple type of visual inspections.

The second thing is when there's a leak. As roofers, as contractors, I hope we all take the opportunity once there is a leak, to actually walk the entire roof, to actually get a glimpse of what's going on, regardless of whether or not it's storm damage, it's isolated. These are opportunities for us to further enhance that relationship with these clients for us to do this value add, if you will. It lends to trust, it lends to confidence, it lends to so many different things. Bring the pictures down, show the owners, show the building operators, give them a glimpse of what it is that's going on up there so you can talk intelligently. Nobody really wants to just get a bill for services. Well, if you can spend that minute and honestly cultivate that relationship in this way, it's money in the bank because later on down the line, you want to be the first person to call, if you will, when it's time for some serious maintenance or serious restoration work. You want to be the only roofer on that guy's desk. Those building blocks are super important to establish that relationship.

Karen Edwards: Do you find, Tom, that when you approach it from that educational perspective of talking to them about what's happening, maybe why it's happening, that they're a lot more open to hire you for a maintenance agreement?

Tom Portaro: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm a big believer in we do business with people we like. Establish that trust, establish that rapport. It becomes an easy choice. And don't be afraid to say, "Hey, I'm going to be in the neighborhood," like I said, if you've got institutional clients or if you wrote a proposal for somebody six months or a year ago, you're in the neighborhood...
Again, I'm not a great salesperson but the great salespeople that I've had in my life, they're all about that constant connection. Constant followups. Yeah, and those are the guys they call. Nobody wants to dig through and find the guy that you spoke to three, four, five years ago. You want to call the people that are in your life that have been there recently. For sure.

Karen Edwards: Tim, talk a little bit about where Gaco comes in to the situation involving metal roofs. What do you see?

Tim Overstreet: Well, first of all, my perspective is a little bit different from Tom's. We want to stay in front of our customers and we want to fix problems before they escalate to that fire that Tom was talking about. Normally, those buildings, those roofs are left and they're left until the leak is terrible, then they call us and they're all in a tizzy. With us, we want to try to stay ahead of them. The quickest way to increase your business and to eliminate price from the equation is to always be in front of them, always taking care of their problems before they're too bad. Really, if your model is, "I only want to reroof projects and I only want to get jobs where I have a request for a quote," how much are you really missing out on?

That's where typically Gaco is going to come in. When we have that metal roof, I want to work with the metal roofing contractors to keep that roof on, restore that roof, issue another warranty on that roof and then continue that relationship with the building owner so that we're going to do a recoat 10 years from now, 15 years from now or 20 years from now and truly turn this metal roof into what it was designed to be and that is the last roof you'll ever put on your building.

Karen Edwards: Tom, how often do you see maybe a roof that had some problems and there was quick repairs done and a couple years later, you're called in. Is that something that you see quite frequently?

Tom Portaro: Way too often. Yes. These problems, they're small problems on the front end. If ignored, they're catastrophic. The restoration business as it relates to this conversation, you have to have something that's worth restoring. I can't remember who said it but we're not in the resurrection business, we're in the restoration business. So a lot of times, there's a fine line.
When you get a little bit down the road and you're familiar with coatings, and Tim and I have been doing this for a minute, there are roofs that unfortunately have gotten so far past the restoration venue now that the owner's really got a problem.

Again, in this constant conversation and this constant outreach and this followup, you're doing her a great service because you get to keep them from making that catastrophic mistake. We all like to think we have a crystal ball constantly as contractors and manufacturers reps, "How long do I have before this becomes a real problem?" Well, gee, we don't know. Could be years, could be weeks, could be decades.

But again, at the point where you're starting to see the signs, that's the time to address it. It isn't just let's hope and pray. You can get in front of this, you can make a great decision that's got great financial benefit to you at this point or you can roll the dice and wait and potentially be paying for something far and above what it is that we're dealing with today. All the time. All the time. Yeah.

Karen Edwards: Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about what to look for when inspecting a metal roof. I really want to hear from you guys what you see. First, what you're looking for, what are some common things that you see and what to do about it? Tim-

Tim Overstreet: Typically, whenever I'm out walking on a roof, looking and evaluating if it's a candidate, the things that I'm looking at are your typical problem areas on metal roofs.
Typically, the field of the metal is not a problem. It is structurally sound. There's not going to be issues. You're typically going to find those problems with seams, fasteners that are backing out, changes of planes and penetrations.

And then I'm also looking to see what type of repairs have been made in the past. Are we utilizing or has this roof been repaired using good roofing practices? We all know that bull is an asphalt material and it belongs on an asphalt roof, but I cannot tell you how many times I get up on a roof and somebody has done a cheap repair with bull. It will fix the problem but that problem will resurface and like Tom said, it's going to be a lot worse eight months, 10 months from now. Once it goes through a full heat and cooling cycle, that bull is going to be wasted and they're going to be calling asking to have the leaks repaired again. We're looking for what type of repairs have been made, what type of chemistries have been utilized to make those repairs. Asphalt, we can take off. Acrylic, we can coat over. Urethanes can be used with any type of restoration material.
And then silicone. Once silicone is on the roof, you have got to use silicone going forward unless you take it off. That's really what I look for.

Karen Edwards: Tom, I'd like to talk with you a little bit about the source of the water. We were chatting about this the other day that just because there's a leak happening here, it could be totally coming from somewhere else. How do you be the leak whisperer?

Tom Portaro: Excellent question, and when I figure out the absolute answer to that, I'll be the first to tell you. Metal roofs are really tough. Again, when we go up on metal roofs as contractors, the beauty part is that the inspections are predominantly visual. Common sense inspections. So this is a great venue as contractors to bring your newer guys in doing inspections on metal roofs.
Again, to Tim's point, we're looking for failed fasteners, failed seams, rust, things that are going to jump out at us. When we're called out for leak repairs on metal roofs and probably most of your audience can relate to this, unlike a traditional roof, we're looking for a puncture or something obvious and that leak source is going to be generally close to where the leak is.

Metal roofs are not that. Metal roofs can be 50, 100 feet away. The problems could be... I've seen problems downhill from the actual leak source wicking and things like that, hydrostatic pressures, things that drive you absolutely nuts. When we're evaluating leaks for clients, it's very, very difficult.
We said this before, when you get paid to fix a leak and you're not successful, you've done a lot to betray that trust, to betray that relationship that we're constantly trying to build. Understanding how difficult this is in having those conversations with building owners is imperative because it is so very hard, needle in a haystack. What we know about metal roofs, it is always transitions. It's always... Again, you walk up on a metal roof that has rust and it's got compromised panels, conversation's easy, "Your roof's shot, there's nothing left to do. We've got to do replacements."
You walk up on a metal roof that's in really, really good shape but they've got chronic leaks, now you're scratching your head. I would definitely tell contractors to overdo it in an effort to try to repair leaks, canvas a large area, address all seams, all fasteners in the general vicinity.

Don't be afraid to go downhill from those leaks because we've seen that plenty of times and honestly, convey to your owners, to your clients that this is a very, very difficult process for exactly those reasons. We are looking for that proverbial needle in the haystack and our success is not as great as it would be, like I said, on a traditional roof, on a single ply or something like that because typically, there's not that obvious smoking gun.

Difficult conversations but really, really important because, again, we want to get paid for that repair. And when that repair is not successful, we've created somewhat adversarial type of relationship with a client. We don't want to do that. Overdo it and hope and pray, and then if it doesn't work the next time, you're going to have to start talking about something a little bit more significant than a simple leak call.

Karen Edwards: Right. I'd like you to talk a little bit about the whys, the why behind this stuff happening and I think, Tim, you started our conversation the other day talking a lot about the thermal shock playing an important role after so long, these roofs start to not be able to keep that water out. Can you just touch on that?

Tim Overstreet: Yeah, sure. That metal roof, as we mentioned earlier, it was sold as the last roof you'll ever need, it's a lifetime roof and that is true of the field of the metal. But that's not true of the seams. That's not true of the fasteners. Thermal shock, and most guys in this that are listening to this right now are aware of this, the average 20-foot metal panel can expand up to a quarter of an inch just under the thermal load of, I call it solar shock, some people call it thermal shock, but that's the expansion and contraction of that metal panel and most of your products that we use to repair, they've got an elongation factor of between three and 500%.

So if these panels are really, really tight, if you don't stop the solar shock, you're not addressing the root cause behind the leak. The leak is the symptom, the solar shock is what's creating the leak. You've got to go and address what is creating the solar shock. We do that by putting up a fluid applied membrane over there that's highly reflective and can reflect most of those UV rays back, thus stopping some of that solar shock to the point when that material can actually hold up, withstand itself over that expansion and contraction. Does that make sense?

Karen Edwards: It does. Yeah. I think that's addressing the stop putting Band-Aids on. Let's do a whole system that's going to work. This is a good transition I think into our next topic here, which is how do you know if this is a candidate for restoration?

Tim Overstreet: As a broad stroke statement, keep in mind, I don't want anybody to just chalk this down but for the most part, if the metal's not compromised, if you're not falling through the metal roof, it's probably going to be a good candidate. Conversely, when we look at the single plies, the TPOs, EPDMs and asphalts, you really have to dig in to find out, is this roof really a candidate?

But for the most part on a roof coating, it is on a metal roof, it's generally going to be a good candidate as long as that metal is not compromised. Whenever I go out and walk on roofs, I'm going to say probably 30% of the single ply roofs that I'll walk on end up being candidates for a coating. On the flip side of that though, 90% of the metal roofs that I'll walk on are a candidate.
Typically, the problems that have been created can be addressed pretty easily and we can get them back into a warrantable situation very easily.

Karen Edwards: Tom, what are some things you look for when trying to determine if that roof is a candidate?

Tom Portaro: Like I said, all visual inspections on the roof side of things, I'm always looking to see what's been done. That's the first thing that's [inaudible 00:23:42]. If I go up on a roof and there have been no previous repairs, there haven't been any other contractors up there, that's always a good sign. That tells me that this roof has aged out naturally and we're just suffering from, again, this thermal expansion and traction, just the degradation of the softer substrates associated with the metal panels, the sealers and whatnot.

I want to go up on a roof that's been constantly barraged with just a whole host of repair materials. That's the caution flag. It's still a great candidate for restoration but again, what we've done now, we have to unwind so much of that previous repair in order to get down to a sound substrate, if you will, so that we can actually get repairs that are going to withstand the test of time.

Ultra important to have conversations with owners, and I say this because owners always lie to me. We just never really... I don't know if it's the mindset that if I tell these guys as contractors that I don't have any leaks, that somehow the price is going to be less. We all know that's not true.
When they can actually be candid and transparent with us about the problems they're having, we can start to make sense of those problems. And obviously, when we craft our restoration repairs, we have a much better idea how serious these issues are.

We're looking to see, again, overall state of affairs. What's going on up there? We're always going to see failed grommets and failed seam, tapes, and things of that nature but if there's a whole host of littered repairs, these guys have been chasing this for years, months, whatever it is. Those repairs were typically harder because we've got to, again, get down to sound substrate, start again.

But the conversations with the owners are imperative. And again, if you've got the charisma to actually get the truth out of them, it's really beneficial to them. I start with that and saying, "Listen, guys, please tell me the truth because better the information, the better the repairs."

Karen Edwards: So well said. Yes. You had mentioned too about maybe trying to be there if it is raining, if something's going on that that really provides a lot more insight into what's going on and determining of the underlying conditions.

Tom Portaro: 100%. And if you can't be there the day of and during the active storms, it's never a bad idea to show up a day after. Typically, we can find the carnage of the buckets on the ground, spotting on the ground, things of that nature, all in an effort to design a repair or restoration that is going to be successful. The key is that knowledge.

Karen Edwards: Right. You want to be successful for the building owner but also for yourself too, because you don't want to keep getting callbacks, right?

Tom Portaro: Absolutely.

Karen Edwards: Yeah. Okay. Let's touch on the benefits of restoring versus replacing a metal roof. Tim, maybe you can kick us off with this topic.

Tim Overstreet: The cost is typically going to be about 60% or 40% cheaper than putting a new roof on. It's typically about 20% cheaper than doing a TPO retrofit, which is where they put EPS foam and HD ISO board and TPO over the top. So we are definitely cost-effective.

On the sustainability front, a lot of people like to focus on not filling up landfills. I'll look at sustainability a little bit differently. I'm looking at how long are they able to sustain a warranty.
If we put on a metal roof and we give them a 15 or 20-year warranty, as we approach the end of that warranted period, we want to come in and do a seam treatment detail and then cover that with the fluid applied roof and give them another 10, 15 or 20-year warranty. And then at the end of that period, we want to come in and do it all over again, address those seams if they need to be and then put another coating over the top. I'll look at trying to keep them in a sustained warranty.
And mind you, on a new roof, your typical warranties are amortized or the depreciated over the life of the roof. Under the tax code as is currently written, any type of roofing membrane that we put on there from a coating standpoint is going to be able to be written off in year one. So they get all the benefits of having that nice long 10, 15 or 20-year warranty but they can take the tax benefit of writing it off here this year.

And then when we look at using the building wall, the work's still being performed, most of these metal roofers are really capable of yanking roof off and putting it on pretty quick. But I did do a job down at the airport in Southern Tennessee and they had a whole bunch of airplanes in this building. They had to move all the airplanes out, all the gear out and stop operations while they yanked a roof off. Conversely, I was doing a project two bays over and they got to continue work while we put this coating up on there. We never interrupted their operations at all, never had any risk to flood out or anything like that. That's why I like playing around in the coating side.

Karen Edwards: Yeah, yeah. Tom, I'd like you to talk a little bit about the evolution of the perception of restoration.

Tom Portaro: I'm not going to take credit for this, and I do believe it was at an ER Systems seminar, the topic was roof restoration. I think it was really central about metal and I'm in there as just a roofer and really not understanding what the notion of restoration is.

The conversation was that when we do a restoration, let's talk about restoring this beautiful 1965 Harley Davidson motorcycle. The notion of a restoration, if we were to restore that motorcycle in 2024, when we're done, that restored motorcycle is actually going to be better than it ever was in 1965.

The products, the chemistries, if you will, in our industry, we are going to put this roof back in better condition than it ever was when it was brand new. That is what the true nature of a restoration is. It doesn't get you back to where you were. It's actually an improvement. That said, coupled with this notion of last building you'll ever need, these systems are sustainable and that word has become so diluted in our industry, but these systems are completely sustainable.

As a contractor, I go up, I do a coating restoration with Gaco, I provide them with a 15-year warranty, At the end of this warranty term or somewhere close to the end of this warranty term, Gaco is going go out on that roof, they're going to do an inspection, they're going to write a prescription to this building owner, they're going to provide it back to us and we now have a formula to go back up there, do this program, this prescription if you will. And at the end of that process, we issue another 15-year warranty and so on and so on. The gift that just keeps giving.

We love this. I love this from just the feel-good side of it but again, what we're doing here is actually a benefit to these building owners far more so than I think. Again, I'm biased and jaded but the alternatives of going over top with a TPO overlay, destructive, lots of fasteners, lots of this, this is elegant. Again, as Tim said, we go in there, we can do this, your normal operations as business as usual for the building owners and when we're done, we've got a leak-proof building for 10, 15, 20 years. Great way to go about doing business.

Karen Edwards: One of the nuggets that we hope you make a note of here is that tax benefit is a great selling point. Always tell them, check with their accountant. We're contractors working on the roof because everybody's situation is different but nine times out of 10 or more, being able to write that off in that first year as part of the capital expenditure rather than a replacement, which like you said is amortized over whatever, 5, 10, 15 years.

I'm not an accountant so I'm not going to say that, but yeah, check with yours and usually, you can.
Let's talk... I want to touch on the differences between the different types of coatings because you mentioned a couple of these earlier, but let's dive a little bit deeper. What's best for metal?

Tim Overstreet: Look, this is where I geek out as we were talking about earlier. I love the chemistry. Whenever I say chemistry, I'm referring to either the silicones, acrylics or urethanes. Each chemistry is a little bit different in terms of its performance, its longevity and then of course, its price. Some chemistries can also require a little more expertise to utilize or to properly apply.
Acrylic, it's pretty easy to work with. It costs a little bit less, it's a little bit more aesthetically pleasing than say silicone and it doesn't quite last as long as some of the other chemistries last because it's going to be UV degraded. The sun's going to shine on it, it's going to burn, it's going to chalk and then the water's going to wash it off. But it looks really, really good while it's on the roof.
If I'm dealing with a 3/12 to maybe a 6/12 pitch metal roof and color and aesthetics is definitely something I'm looking for, but I also want to be waterproof, acrylic is a good place to look.
Silicone, it's a little more expensive. It may discolor secondary to environmental conditions but it lasts for a long time. Silicone is the only metal root or is the only roofing material that is truly non-sacrificial in nature.

But again, it can be a little bit of a challenge to spray it. Tom knows this all too well. All it takes is using the wrong mineral spirits or having the wrong guy on the gun and you just wasted $5000 worth of hose in a matter of minutes. Urethanes, of course, they come in at the highest price point. They definitely require some skill to work with, but their performance is almost unparalleled. It's got a tensile strength that is 10 times that of silicone and an elongation that's almost twice that of silicone. So urethane is really good on the metal roof side, but it's kind of expensive.
Personally coming from the applicator side and then working on the manufacturer side, if I'm dealing with a metal roof, I prefer a hybrid system. I like to use urethane on all my seams and details, change of planes, etc. and then I either want to put an acrylic on it if it's a higher pitch roof, or if it's a flat roof, I want to put a silicone membrane over the top of that. So that's where my experience lies.

Karen Edwards: Okay. Thank you. Tom, I'd like you to speak from the contractor perspective because there's different equipment, there's different skill levels. Can you talk about that?

Tom Portaro: Sure. Again, I try not to get passionate about chemistry. In my experience, roofs typically dictate what we need, what's right for them. So this isn't some let's throw this in a hat and pick one, whether it's an aesthetic type of a project where we're doing something that is visual and there's an architectural side to this, whether it's flat and nobody cares, it's industrial. What's the environment? Can we spray? Can we roll? Whatnot. Again, agree with Tim that the chemistries all have their place. I'm a big silicone guy. I've been in silicone but that's just what we do.

From a contractor point of view, if you're an entry-level contractor and you're getting into coatings, it is only acrylic. You do not want to start your life and start playing in the silicone or the urethane world. The equipment is very expensive. It's lethal. It is actually very, very dangerous. This is for professional use only. There's no joke about this.

The problem with acrylics is you're going to be competing with everybody. When you start getting into the silicones and the urethanes, you have a limited contractor base that has the skill set and the equipment that can actually apply those coatings. So as you work your way up the chain, if you will, life gets harder but that thin air definitely does not promote a whole lot of competition, if you will, but certainly they all have their value. But in terms of getting into this and in terms of your contractors who are listening who may be interested in getting into coatings, please keep it in the acrylic world and see if you like it because the other ones are not for the faint of heart.

Karen Edwards: Yeah. Tim, I would like you to touch on and we talked about this before when we were chatting the other day, about the manufacturer's role in making sure... Because perhaps perception of restorations was not the fault of the product. It may have been a bad install or someone that didn't know what they were doing or didn't have the right equipment. So can you talk a little bit about how you as a manufacturer make sure it's a good outcome for everybody involved?

Tim Overstreet: That is a big hands-on portion and that's where some people like me, some people don't because I am very, very hands-on. I want to be involved throughout the entirety of the process to make sure that it goes smooth. If you go back as far back as the 1970s roof foam and acrylic coating was put on so many projects all over the country. The roof foam rigs were fairly inexpensive at that point, they weren't nearly as automated as they are today and anybody that could get one was out there spraying roof foam and putting an acrylic on and it really, really gave acrylic bad name.

Suffice it to say that there are very few people that'll listen to this that have been called out to look at a good foam job. Mostly, it's bad foam jobs and it looked like the surface of the moon because the guys did not know what they were doing. Now, we have training sessions. We do everything from training people, brand new contractors on how to get into our coatings. We do foam trainings, we do acrylic and silicone spray trainings. We handle all aspects of the business to ensure that our customers are successful.

And then guys like me, we want to get up there and we want to walk the roof before, we want to get on the roof in the middle of the install. There's been many times that I hop up there and put on my spray boots and I start spraying silicone beside everybody else. We want to be involved.
At the end of the day, guys, we are going to be married, for lack of a better term, going to be married to the contractor and to the building owner for the next 20 years. We want to make sure that it's done right.

Generally speaking, in our industry, it's always a race to the bottom. Everything is such a commodity, and I don't believe in that. Good and cheap are not using the same sentence to describe the same thing, and there's only one way we do things and that's the right way. No cutting corners, let's just do it the right way and everybody's going to be better.

Karen Edwards: I like the marriage analogy. You touched on this, the resources that you guys offer. If someone is saying, "Hey, you know what? I want to be involved," because Tom, you said something the other day that if somebody's not a part of it, they're going to be left behind.

Tom Portaro: Yeah, that is absolutely true. Our role at NTEC as we are a subcontractor to traditional roofers, by and large. We don't work directly for owners or clients. We work for roofing contractors, and it's our job to educate these roofing contractors, their sales guys and their ops guys into the world of restorations.

Back in the day, twenty-some odd years ago, I couldn't get a meeting. There was nobody that really wanted to talk about roof coatings or roof restorations. Now, not so much. Now, this has become a major market share. So if you're listening to this and you're traditional roofer, metal roofing contractor and you're not doing this, you're missing because we are working with your competitors, both Tim and I. There's no reason for this anymore. Were there some bad coatings jobs? Absolutely. Was it based on chemistry or install? Absolutely.

But the industry has graduated. The manufacturers have graduated. Tim, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I'd argue that Gaco was not very strict with who they would certify to do their installations. We've all learned from that. Again, we all want to be married. We all want this industry to thrive. So we all, as contractors and as manufacturers, need to cultivate education, great installs, great chemistries. We need to understand substrates. We need to do the due diligence on the front end to ensure that those projects are successful.

Again, as a contractor, I'm constantly brought into meetings, even ultimately with clients that bring in their end users and I get to be whatever it is I need to be, I'm director of coatings for this company or something, but to sit in a room and educate people, who doesn't love that?
If we are not passionate about doing this and we're not passionate about what we're doing here 9:00 to 5:00, we're in the wrong industry.

Yeah, again, the products, the chemistries, the programs, the training, all of it has gotten so great and really set up for success. It all starts again with knowing what we're looking at on the front end, being able to prepare and apply these products properly and ultimately, keeping everybody educated and forums for really sharing this information across this whole restoration industry. We all need to be better.

Karen Edwards: Yeah, yeah. It's so true, and I know that there's industry associations like the Roof Coatings Manufacturers Association and they've rolled out some training programs that I'm sure Gaco is involved and a member of. But Tim, I'd like you to share... You shared some stats the other day when we were talking about the number of manufacturers, the number of brands and the importance of being set up and trained properly. Can you just touch on that a little bit?

Tim Overstreet: Absolutely, yeah. First, let me preface this by saying we don't just set up any and every contractor. In the past, coating manufacturers have. There is a very thorough process that we go through in making sure that we're married to the right partner.

We were the first manufacturer to bring silicone to the roofing industry back in 1993 and we remained the leader in the market share. I think in the Georgia market, we're about 28% of the market for silicone and considering that we've got 55 labels of silicone, there's nine companies that are actually grinding and making silicone and there's 55 people that are reselling this silicone.
We are a sole source manufacturer, meaning we make everything that we sell and the only place you can get it is from us.

And then even furthermore, we don't third-party warrant. In every one of those cases, if you're going to partner with a manufacturer and they're going to stand behind your roof, do you want somebody standing behind your roof just material or the person that made the material? Do you want the warranty to be held by somebody who bought the warranty document for a few cents on the dollar, or do you want somebody that actually made the material and is not going to lose a relationship over a few gallons of material and a training opportunity even if you happen to do it the wrong way?

Silicone has become a commodity but we remain the leader. We are consistently bringing new innovation to the market, and we choose and want to partner with only the best contractors out there in the business.

Karen Edwards: Excellent. Tom, yeah, anything to add?

Tom Portaro: Wanted to add, and this is probably common across all the roofing trades, all the traditionals and everything else, but it's certainly common in the coating and the restoration business. If you do this long enough, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when there's a problem.
You've got to be aligned with a manufacturer that's going to be in the room with you, that's going to help you solve those problems, is going to help you get past it.

Gaco's been around and I've only had great experiences, and they're a rare breed, so it's really important. I don't mean to plug you to them, but it's the God's honest truth. When you say you want to align yourself with a good reputable coating manufacturer, I can't stress it enough because as contractors, the last thing we want to do is be out there on a limb by ourselves. You guys at Gaco have always been great, always stood by your contractors and honestly, it's really win-win relationship for everybody.

Karen Edwards: That's great to hear. I'm going to move on to our Q&A. If you do have a question, feel free to drop it in the chat or use the question and answer feature on Zoom. We did get a question asking how successful sales are, like success rates and it named a couple of different brands that I think are competitors to Gaco, so I'm not going to name them, but I feel like this maybe is a question of the growth of the restoration in general, not just for metal, because we're seeing it as an industry. What kind of growth are you seeing in your markets that you serve in terms of restoration versus roof replacement?

Tim Overstreet: Well, now, I moved from the Georgia... I'm sorry. I moved from the Alabama, Mississippi and Florida Panhandle market two and a half years ago. My first year in Georgia, East Tennessee and North Carolina I saw a sales increase of about 38%. This year, and of course to get personal every once in a while, I had to have chemotherapy because of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma so I was off the road for just a little bit and during that time, I still ended up with about a 10% growth.

Nationwide, they are saying that the silicone market is constricting slightly. I think that is really pushed by some of the things that are going on with the insurance industry in Florida, because Florida holds a lion's share of the coatings market just because of the way they're set up. But we're still seeing growth.

They did call out a couple manufacturers. One of those manufacturers that starts with a K has been around forever. The lion's share of what they sell is actually bull and is used in asphalt markets and in the shingles market, especially in Florida.

And then the other one is a phenomenal, it starts with a C, It's a phenomenal product on the acrylic side. They are a little bit on the pricey side. Me and Tom were talking about that earlier today. Good, good products but they're very expensive products. They have their place and they do have some multi-level marketing involved in their company.

Karen Edwards: Oh. Okay. Watch out for that. Tom, what do you have to add? What are you seeing?

Tom Portaro: I guess I need more information. Is the question about brand and success rate, or is the question about specifically what is the overall success rate in selling roof restorations?

Karen Edwards: I'm leaning more toward the overall success rate in selling roof restorations.

Tom Portaro: Again, interesting dynamics. NTEC again serves so many different contractors. I have contractors that are probably booking 40 plus percent, they're closing 40 plus percent of their proposals. I have contractors that are booking zero.

There's an art, and this goes back to the education. It's not just the education of the application and understanding the inspections, but the art of the sale because it's not the typical sale.
People come to you, in my opinion, they want a metal roof. They already know this, that maybe they're shopping price, maybe they're shopping reputation, but you're not really talking about, "Hey, let me tell you about something else." I can't imagine that somebody's looking for a metal roof. You're going to sell them on TPO. It doesn't make any sense.

We are an option. The coating restoration is an option to a replacement or something else but for argument's sake, it's an option to a replacement. That sale becomes something different. And again, it starts with education. I had the privilege of doing business, I still do, with a contractor up in Tennessee and he talked about the way he would sell roofs and I've sat in many sales pitch with him.

All roofs die. Well, that's a catchy phrase. Building owners like, "What? My roof's dying?" And he would go into this thing, but it was a wonderful pivot to organics and chemistries and it got really complicated and everything else. But at the end of the day, it was really, really simple because the end result was, "I've got a restoration that isn't going to die, that the chemistry is not organic and it's not going to die."

Other guys, again, they're playing both and again, if you're a metal roof contractor and you have a budget-friendly alternative, maybe it's a roof that ultimately does need to be replaced, but maybe this client has a five-year lease or ownership plans to sell the building, we're going to be cheaper. We're going to be less expensive. That's a value add. But again, the skill in selling these roofs ultimately dictates your success. I think the industry has graduated past. Is this a viable solution?

Karen Edwards: Right.

Tim Overstreet: For sure.

Tom Portaro: Anybody that's on this podcast, anybody that's listening to this today, I think you're at the very least buying that there's some value here. I'll tell you this. For 24 years, I've done nothing but I'm living proof, it is a viable solution and this company's been around for really, really long time. There's a lot of viability. And there's a lot of potential growth. If you're not the biggest metal roofer in town and you want to expand your business, this is a great platform. It's a zero growth cost.

Tim can help you out with products. He can help you out with contractors that can help you do the installs on the front end. Maybe you want to get into this but this is a great growth potential for your company. In business, when we talk about growth that doesn't cost any money, that's a rare thing. So again, we talked about this at the beginning. If you're not doing this, somebody else is, you're missing it.

Karen Edwards: Right, right.

Tom Portaro: You're missing it.

Karen Edwards: Another good question that came in, and I hear this back and forth a lot too, does a full roof coating count as a second roof? I think it might be a common misconception.

Tim Overstreet: Absolutely, it does not if it's only a roof coating. If it's foam and coating, then that is a roof system. If you do just a coating, acrylic, urethane or silicone over the top, then it is considered a maintenance specification, which is why you're able to take those tax write-offs there in year one.

Tom Portaro: And the other side is that question likely comes for somebody that lives in an IBC governed state, no more than two roofs. So yes, the answer to that question is, heck yeah, you can do a roof restoration if there are two roofs in place.

I'm located in Georgia here. We're not IBC governed but I work in many, many states that are. We can do a roof restoration over the second roof legally and so that is a huge market for restorations.
If you want to be competitive and everybody else is talking about tearing off down the deck and redoing, and you have an alternative to do a restoration, you're likely going to win that bid. Your pricing is going to be really, really strong.

Tim Overstreet: Now, I do want to add a caveat to that though. You want to have your manufacturer come out and assess that roof because if there's moisture in that roof, if that roof is completely shot, Gaco is not Jesus in a bucket, it's not going to take a bad roof and make it good. We have got to go in there and look at that roof, make sure it is a viable option. And if it's not wet, then yes, we can do it. But if it's wet, the right answer is we need to tear it off and start over.

Karen Edwards: Excellent. Very well said. I think my takeaway is Jesus in a bucket.

Tom Portaro: Quote of the day. Quote of the day.

Karen Edwards: The quote of the day. Oh, wow. Well, I just want to say thank you, Tim, Tom. Thank you for being here. Thank you to Gaco for sponsoring this. I think it was a very educational and informative topic. I learned a lot. I hope that those of you watching out there and attending live or watching on demand also get some really good takeaways. Thank you both.

Tom Portaro: Thank you, Karen. Appreciate it.

Tim Overstreet: Thank you so very much.

Outro: Excellent. And thank you for watching this MetalTalk. As I said, this is going to be available on demand on MetalCoffeeShop within one to two days, so you can watch it again or share it with someone that you think needs to see it. And we hope to see you on a future episode. Take care everyone. Thanks, Tim. Thanks, Tom.