From Asphalt to Metal – Contractor Diversification - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Todd Miller, Mitch Heitsch, James Develder and Travis Sliger of the  Metal Roofing Alliance. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the recording.

Intro: Hello and welcome to the very first MetalCoffeeShop Coffee Conversations. My name is Heidi Ellsworth and we are here to talk metal. So exciting. We have a history in the Coffee Shop world of Coffee Conversations on RoofersCoffeeShop, and now we have expanded and this is our very first MetalCoffeeShop Coffee Conversations and we're going to be talking about how contractors can make the move to include metal tile into their offerings.

So first of all, let's do some housekeeping. We are very excited about this very first Metal Coffee Conversations: From Asphalt to Metal, Contractor Diversification. And we are recording. So this will be available within 24 to 48 hours for you to share with your company, the industry, your friends and family, whoever that may be. We want to be sure that you get it out there. It will be on demand.

And the chat is open, so we are very excited to hear from all of you on what you think, where you're at, give us the name of your company, what part of the country you're in. Do you have snow or not? I do. And please, join the conversation because this is Coffee Conversations. As we're going through, we want to hear from you throughout the hour.

So I want to have a very special thanks for the Metal Roofing Alliance. The Metal Roofing Alliance is one of the leading associations in metal helping to really bring the benefits of metal to homeowners, contractors and the design community overall for residential metal roofing. Led by Renee Ramey, she is a force to be reckoned with and absolutely an amazing lady in the metal industry. We want to thank MRA very much for being our sponsors of our Coffee Conversations on MetalCoffeeShop all year long. So stay tuned, we're going to be doing this more this year.

So let's get started. And I think I said it at the beginning, my name is Heidi Ellsworth and I am the president of RoofersCoffeeShop and MetalCoffeeShop and all of the Coffee Shops. And so I was so honored to be able to reach out to bring together this panel today to talk about metal tiles and moving from asphalt to that and diversifying your business. And they are some of the best in the industry who have been working to train and help contractors to do this for a long time. I was going to say decades and I'm going to say decades, but it's been a long time. So, first of all, I would like to welcome Todd Miller to our panel. Todd, good morning.

Todd Miller: Good morning, Heidi. Thank you so much. And thank you for all you do for the roofing industry and metal roofing also. We appreciate it.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Oh my gosh, you know we love it, Todd and you and I have worked together for a long time. You are so active with the Metal Roofing Alliance, with the Metal Construction Association, with everything. If you could just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your company and your involvement in the industry?

Todd Miller: Sure, thank you so much. So our company is Isaiah Industries. The company was formed by my father back in 1980. We have manufactured metal shingles since that time. We used to do a lot of commercial products, so you've seen our product a zillion times on Pizza Hut's and Dairy Queen's, but in the mid-eighties when I came into the business, we really started focusing on residential. So today we are almost entirely residential. We produce about 15 different styles of copper, aluminum and steel shingles and also standing seam work with customers across North America and do a little bit of export beyond that as well. But, yes, I currently serve as chair of the Metal Roofing Alliance, which is a great organization I've been blessed to be with since the beginning. And then I also serve on the board of directors for Metal Construction Association, and I'm a strong believer in what we can do together as a industry rather than trying to go out there and fight all the big battles on our own.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I tell you what, Todd, I am right with you. We have been so proud to have MetalCoffeeShop be part of MRA and MCA, and just the industry overall and the great things that are happening with metal. It's been popular and it's just taking off. It's so great right now to be a part of it.

So I'd also like to introduce Travis Sliger, who is with Forever Metal, who I've just met in the last little while and so impressive. Travis, welcome to the show. Please, introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your company.
Travis Sliger: Yeah, thanks for having me. So I'm the owner of Forever Metal Roofing. We operate out of Fort Wayne, Indiana and into Ohio. We've installed over 2,000 metal roofs in total, but we've really kind of carved out a niche with metal shingles. The focus has always been about educating homeowners, cutting through noise, making sure people understand the benefits of metal roofing. I'm really passionate about making metal roofing more attainable, so whatever I can do to bring efficiencies, partnerships, anything that we can to bring those products to the market, I'm really passionate about that.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That's great. I mean, you have done it. You've done exactly what we're going to be talking about today, so it's perfect. We're excited to hear everything.

And I'm really excited to also welcome Mitch Heitsch to the show. Mitch and I have been on many interviews before. Mitch, welcome. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your company.

Mitch Heitsch: Yeah. Hey, Heidi. It's great to see you again. Like you said, we've done quite a few of these together, but I definitely appreciate MetalCoffeeShop having us on. I'm honored and humbled to be a part of this panel. There's a lot of experience, a lot of knowledge here and it's really, really cool to be a part of this, so thank you so much for having me on.
I'm the regional manager for our Unified Steel line. Unified Steel is a little bit different than some of the other panelists on here. It's a stone-coated metal panel, but similar installation in the sense that it lays out the metal shingles, but Unified Steel is a part of actually a much bigger organization that we are a part of, which is Westlake. Westlake is a nationwide company that operates in multiple countries. We have a lot of different products in the polymer space as well as building products, so I'm actually specifically in our Westlake Royal Building Products division and then our Roofing Solutions. So our Roofing Solutions division, we have concrete, clay, synthetic and then our stone-coated metal, so I get to live in my silo of the Unified Steel, which is our stone-coated metal.

So it's been a little bit of a journey getting here. I'm fortunate enough that I've been able to experience quite a bit of diversity with my background. I started as a concrete tile rep in the Central Florida area and then moved over to the contractor space for a little bit, came back into the manufacturing side and absolutely loving my role here as a regional manager for Unified Steel. And I cover basically from North Dakota down to Florida and everything in between there.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Nice. A little bit of everything there.

Mitch Heitsch: Yeah.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Thank you so much for being here.
And last but certainly not least, I am very excited to welcome James Develder to the show from Vicwest. And, James, this is one of your first appearances. We're so excited to have you as part of this. Vicwest is a big part of MRA. Please, introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your company.

James Develder: I'm James Develder, I work for Vicwest. I've been in metal roofing for 14 years now. Started back in 2010 with Gerard Roofing Technologies, which then became Boral. Coming up on four years with Vicwest, a great company out of Canada, a huge up in Canada. They decided to get into the US market in 2020, so they went to IRE in February of 2020 and then a month later the world shuts down with COVID, so kind of put the damper on that. I started in '21 and we've been growing off the team. We just hired two more reps, one for Texas, one for the Pacific Northwest and we have plans to open manufacturing plants in the States as soon as middle of this year, so we have metal roofing and metal siding.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I've been watching, you guys are doing a lot. It's really exciting to watch. And talk about diversification for contractors because of the siding also.

James Develder: Yeah.

Heidi J Ellsworth: So a lot of opportunities.

Well, gentlemen, thank you. Let's get started. First of all, I would like to remind everybody the chat is open. Megan Ellsworth, our producer, is in the background and she's chatting. We would love to know where you're at, where you're from, why you're here and also add your comments as we go through.

Also, I do want to mention that normally or going forward, Karen Edwards is going to be the host of MetalCoffeeShop Coffee Conversations. So I am here today, I may be making some guest appearances as we go along, but you'll be seeing a lot more of Karen Edwards here too. So let's get started.

Okay, let's talk about how the residential roofing market has been changing. I mean, we are seeing it. We're seeing it here at the MetalCoffeeShop, we're seeing it on RoofersCoffeeShop. There is just so much that is being requested, demanded, of homeowners and insurance on to what they want of their roofs and the roofs' performance. So I would love to start with you, Todd, just on what you're seeing is really driving the performance and what are you just overall seeing in the residential roofing market?

Todd Miller: Sure, that's a great question. Thank you. You're absolutely right, I don't think there... And many homeowners anymore who think about roofing their houses that don't at least consider metal and that certainly wasn't the case 20 years ago. One of the things that we see a lot of times is weather extremes and changing weather patterns tend to drive a lot of those concerns about, "Oh, no, will my roof hold up?" So I think that's part of it. I think part of what we see going on is just an evolution of products also. So if you look at any component of the home over time, you see it changing toward materials that are longer term, maybe have more aesthetics, maybe have more energy efficiency and so forth. So part of what we're seeing with metal is that as well, but I do think two of the big events recently that have driven a lot of the interest.

One was Hurricane Ian down in Florida a couple of years ago. That kind of became sort of a tipping point where so many roofs had to be and everyone coming out of that at least considered metal, and a good share of those have gone with metal. So that just makes more people see metal and think about metal. And, again, another tragedy, but here we are now with the wildfires in Southern California and I think we're going to see something similar out there as well as people start to rebuild thinking about steel and aluminum and copper for their roofs and walls as ways to help fire-safe their homes.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, it just seems like a lot of these extreme events are driving changes to building code, to drive in the way homeowners think and what they want and obviously with insurance. But, Mitch, what are you seeing from the stone-coated steel side?

Mitch Heitsch: Yeah. I mean, I think to piggyback on what Todd said there a little bit, I definitely think that a lot of these inclement weather events have had such a massive impact on the way that people think about their roof. Because I mean, we all drink the Kool-Aid. I think everyone that's on this panel, everyone that's on the call, they drive down the road and all they're doing is staring at roofs. But your average homeowner, maybe they're a nurse, a teacher, doctor, whatever, they're never going to look at their roof until it's time to have to replace it. And then they're going to replace it, they're going to stare at it for a month and then they're never going to look at it again. So for a lot of people, they don't really ever think about it and I think that it's a lot of what's being offered to them by the contractors.

And that's a big part of what we're going to talk about here today, I think, is the contractors have to be the one driving this narrative to protect people and to give them that best option for their home because you're seeing these major weather events that have hit and yes, there's a side of it that the homeowners are looking at it saying, "I need to be better protected maybe," but I think that really the roofing industry is being driven primarily by the insurance right now. I'm a Floridian, so we're in the heart of it, which is right now, I wish I could give you more of, "Hey, this is where the insurance companies are going," but I don't think anybody knows right now. There's kind of a lot of balls in the air on that one.

But insurance is really driving the conversation on roofing right now. Deductibles are going up, premiums are going up, they're separating out roofing deductibles from the actual policy themselves where you're having to pay on the value of your home, so it is becoming more and more expensive to reroof. And so the conversation is now driven to, "Do you want to do this every 10 years or what options are out there so I don't have to worry about this again?" Because it's exhausting, right? Whether or not insurance pays for it or not, there's a disruption to your life. There's holidays that you have to worry about and family coming into town, and storing product and people walking on your roof while you're trying to do work or whatever because there's a lot of remote workers now. So what options are out there to give people that permanent option?

And, again, without the homeowners thinking about what it is that they need, we as an industry, both from the manufacturing and the contracting side, have got to be driving this narrative to the homeowners on education and awareness on what products are out there for them.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. I mean, it's really true. I've been thinking this for years, Mitch, to be 100% honest. I mean, when I think about the hail in Colorado, being from Oregon, we just were a little clueless about things before, now we're not, but do you really want to get your roof re-roofed every couple years? That is just such a hassle overall, but now so many other things are driving it.

Mitch Heitsch: And I don't think it has to just be the people in the South that deal with hurricanes, right?

Heidi J Ellsworth: Right.

Mitch Heitsch: I think that that's what everyone always thinks about and people want to flood to Florida after a hurricane to help with the roofing efforts down here and stuff. But, I mean, you look at across the country, Todd mentioned a lot of it, of the fire events that are going on in California, major tragic event, but they're things that are going to be looked at differently from insurance and building regulations and that kind of stuff. There's hailstorms that happen, there's tornadoes. I mean, there's just massive weather events hitting everywhere in the North American area right now, so it's a conversation that doesn't just affect people in the Southern states. It's affecting everyone as a whole.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, it really is. James, what are you seeing? I mean, coming from Canada too, I love, Mitch, you just said North America because really it's everywhere.

James Develder: I'm from Chicago, so I'm not going to [inaudible 00:16:05].

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah.

James Develder: But no, people are staying in their houses longer, so now they're looking for that permanent solution. As Mitch was saying, they don't want to have to reroof the house two, three times, so they're looking for something that could be one and done with and a metal roof is perfect for that. In addition to the aesthetics, I have a metal roof on my house, I still pull up to my house every day and look at my roof and go, "Man, that looks cool." I have the coolest roof in the neighborhood. I have the coolest roof in my city because I know everybody have a roof, no one has a roof like mine. So it's something to be proud of. It's like everybody in the neighborhood has a tan sedan and you have a Corvette. It's something different, something cool, it looks good. And not only looks good, it performs good and it's going to last you forever.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. I love it, I love it. Travis, I would love for you to tell your story and we hear from the manufacturers, but your story on 2,000 roofs, metal roofs, that is so impressive. Can you talk about your market and what people are looking for and what's really been driving your growth in metal?

Travis Sliger: A combination of what everybody's touched on. Todd mentioned evolution of materials. I think that goes with a de-evolution of materials on the asphalt side. Asphalt over the years has become less and less reliable. They've put in less asphalt, more filler materials. I think homeowners have gone through a roof cycle or two to understand that the promises from the asphalt shingle warranties don't necessarily hold up, so they're ready for something that's a little bit more permanent like James had mentioned.

And, two, we live in an age where everybody is able to be informed very quickly, so they're doing their research, they're finding materials, they're getting information from the MRA, they have a wonderful website where homeowners are able to go to and get a bunch of non-biased information from third parties. And then when we sit with the homeowners, we are feeling all of that pain from them and we're touching, we're just educating them on the benefits, we're educating them on asphalt shingles, we're providing a bunch of third-party data that says, "This is the average life cycle of an asphalt shingle.

Here's your warranty, here's what happens in these certain situations." And it's more appealing to the homeowner.
We have a saying, I don't know how appropriate it is, but we tell the homeowner, roofing isn't generally sexy to the homeowner. It's not a boat, it's not a motorcycle. They would much don't want to have to do the roof, so they want to take as much of this pain out as possible. And I think all the benefits of metal for most people, if you can make it affordable either through financing or if they can afford it, then it solves their biggest pain points.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Do you see a lot of your market, and people, because you talked about research and them coming into research, are you seeing a lot of people coming to you specifically because Metal roofing is in the company name?

Travis Sliger: I do. I think it has tremendous benefits as far as organic search results. The biggest shift that we noticed was when we stopped trying to run so many ads, forcing it down people's throats and then the content became more educational. So it was educational content you're giving, you're educating homeowners, not just about metal, but you're educating them about asphalt. You're telling them when asphalt would be a good fit for them when it wouldn't be. I think that that builds trust with the homeowner, and I think there's a lot of sales fatigue and ad fatigue from the homeowner now too, so they just want to deal with somebody who can be honest, truthful, help them out, solve the problem and somebody who has a good reputation.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Todd, I'm seeing you nod. You're just like-

Todd Miller: Yeah.

Heidi J Ellsworth: So I would love your thoughts on that.

Todd Miller: No, I think Travis is spot on. I think that homeowners know enough about metal roofing that in a lot of cases they know that, "I want to find an expert to do this." So I think whatever you can do to establish yourself as in your marketing area in metal roofing, and that comes down to the content you put on your website, the content you put on social media, maybe trying to establish yourself with the local newspaper is doing a home improvement column once a week or the local radio show. I think homeowners realize that they need that sort of expertise, and Travis has done a great job in Northern Indiana establishing himself as that expert. And that just kind of drives the people and it really helps to build a business that can thrive on that growth and referral business and all those types of things. So absolutely, I think that's the key.

And there's a great book out there called They Ask You Answer, and it's-

Travis Sliger: My favorite book. My favorite marketing book.

Todd Miller: It's an excellent book in terms of just saying, "Give consumers what they want." We live in an information age. Used to be sometimes marketers would try to hide information or hide the secret sauce or hide behind smoke and mirrors, but at this point you really got to give that consumer what you want, what they want and then use that to draw them into a conversation and a relationship where you can help them be their own hero. And that's one of the things Donald Miller talks a lot about is you're not necessarily the hero anymore, but you're the guide, if you will, to help them become their own hero and make their best discovery in terms of the roof that is right for them in their home. It may not be metal, I hope it is, but it has to be what's right for them in their home.

Travis Sliger: Agree. That's my favorite marketing book that I've ever read. I've read it three times. It's awesome.

Mitch Heitsch: It's a great book.

Travis Sliger: It is a great book.

James Develder: Guys, we're selling metal roofs, not books, come on.

Heidi J Ellsworth: But I like it. That's exactly what it's all about. I know.

Travis Sliger: If you read that book, it'll help you sell a lot of metal roofs, I promise.

Mitch Heitsch: Yeah.

James Develder: There you go.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Well, let's talk a little bit about market trends then too, because I know there's a lot of research out there and it's being done by the associations to kind of help to that point, Travis, to say, "Look, this is what people are looking for. This is what they're coming for." Todd, from the MRA, from all the associations, we have been seeing these trends and just the surveys, the Dodge reports, all of that where we're seeing metal roofing and siding increasing. What are you seeing with that?

Todd Miller: Well, it's absolutely increasing and it's increasing to the point of where 20 years ago, those who researched such things, metal wasn't even a blip. They didn't even consider us. And yet today, now metal is clearly the number two material in terms of residential roofing and that's a quantum leap right there to become the number two player. And market share is probably around 15% as far as 15% of the homeowners replacing a roof this year will choose metal. Obviously, there's geographic differences to that, strong points and low points, but a lot of that comes down to the Travis's out there. And that's what Mitch was saying also, if you have the Travis's driving the market in their local market, metal roofing share is going to go up. Yeah.

Heidi J Ellsworth: James, what are you seeing? Because I mean, you have to be doing a lot of that same market research.

James Develder: Yeah, it's growing every year the more and more people are learning about metal and realizing it's a good fit for their home. The biggest thing I see is especially with the homeowners, they still don't know that metal shingles exist. You go to a home show or something like that and a homeowner will come up, "Oh, is this new? I've never seen this before." It's been around for a long time. When they think metal, they think standing seam or exposed fastener or something like that, so it's nice to have the guys like Travis out there going out there and showing a metal shingle saying, "No, this is an option for you. You have a great look and all the benefits of metal."

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. And that's one of the things. Okay, so thank you because that's exactly where we want to go for everybody who's on listening is how do you do it? How do you make that shift? Between insurance, extreme weather, the trends, homeowners research, all of that, it's obvious that as contractors are looking at diversifying their business, they should be adding or growing their segment on metal. So how do you do that? So, Travis, your story a little bit. How did you get, when you looked at going from and I don't know if you just... Tell us your story, did you start with metal?

Travis Sliger: Sure. Yeah.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Did you go from asphalt to metal? How did that work?

Travis Sliger: My entire path in roofing in general, I would say was my junior senior year, I shingled some roofs with a... Everybody calls them a chuck and a truck or a stand and a van. I did that for two summers when I was in college, my first two years I worked for a commercial distribution company, so that's where I learned how to drive a stick shift, I burned out a clutch on a stake bed truck delivering some ISO to some customers and he told me I was only allowed one clutch.
And then after that, when I was in school, I had my path, I enjoy advertising, I enjoy branding and marketing, digital marketing. So I studied marketing with a minor in business administration. And when I got out, I ended up with this sales job for this plastic fabricator, but the drive to be an entrepreneur was always there. So I moonlighted on the weekends where I would generate leads, digital leads, because at that time Google and Facebook were kind of... It was like the wave was just starting and it was like the new frontier at that time as far as digital advertising goes. And I had a friend who was working for a metal roofing contractor, and all they did was exclusively door knocked. And I'm just sitting there thinking like, "Oh my goodness, you're making so many people mad and turning them away. I can help you."

And it turned into, I got hired in-house, they figured out that I knew how to measure roofs and sell roofs and install roofs. And then in doing so, my passion for metal really grew. I started to see the benefits of metal, that longevity that it offered the customer. And long story short, the company that I worked for wasn't doing so well. They weren't really serving the customer, they were promising certain things and delivering the exact opposite. I had a internal moral conflict with that. Tried to work for one other contractor, and it was the exact carbon copy of the last company, so I said, "This can be done better and who's going to treat me better than me?"

So I started my own company and right away I knew from working with the last contractor that one of the biggest objections that I felt was preventing the industry as a whole or the market from growing, having more growth or more accelerated growth, was the fact that the biggest objection was a lot of wives didn't want their house to look like a barn. They loved all the benefits of metal, they wanted the longevity, the energy efficiency, all of that, the versatility in colors, but they didn't want the roof to look like a barn. So in an attempt to like, "How can I incorporate this into my business?" I'm looking into different options. And at that time, I'm small, I don't have a brand, I don't have any authority in my marketplace. So I'm looking at ways, I mentioned my... I'm passionate about it, I want to make metal more accessible to people. I want more people to be able to afford it somehow, some way through strategic partnerships or whatnot.

One thing that I still feel is a way that we can get around this was I would approach companies and say, "Hey, will you allow me to buy the material direct or either co-op your marketing dollars that you have set aside in hard collateral for distributors? Will you work with a partner that will actually, if I have some co-op dollars, I'll advertise this? So I'll run ads that say, 'A metal roof doesn't have to look like a barn.'" So that's what we did, we started working on working direct, find a strong regional partner that's going to promote this and create awareness because ultimately the homeowner is the one who's going to drive the growth. It's not a contractor, it's not just me. Once the homeowner finds out about it, the homeowner has to say, "I want that," and they'll drive it.

So however we can get the awareness to the homeowner and cut out as much from the middle or the hurdles out of the middle, that's what works. And that's what's worked for us. And then trying to cut out as much of that middleman cost that we could, and then going direct to the market with advertising that says, "Hey, you probably didn't know that this existed, but this is an option for your home and you get all the benefits of metal." So that really, really worked out for us. And I'll go as far as saying it doesn't just help my company grow, it helps other companies, so people are able to learn the content we put out. Other contractors are learning from our content, other contractors are getting caught up. A lot of what I learned early on came from me watching videos of Todd.

I just learned so much from Todd absorbing as much of his content as I could that I was able to pass that on to the customer. And I think a lot of other contractors, we've created some competition for ourselves, which is fine. It's good for the market. We've created some competition in just the fact that we're creating awareness, so direct to the consumer, let them know, "This is available, this is available for you and it looks amazing."

Heidi J Ellsworth: That kind of goes back to what Mitch said too, that contractors, but also manufacturers, need to get to those homeowners and let them know this is such a great option. And now with the internet and research, that's so much more. You know what, Todd? To play off what Travis just said, you have been training contractors for a very long time on how to sell metal and how to install metal because you can't sell it if you can't install it. Talk about that a little bit.

Todd Miller: Oh, some people don't believe that. Oh, I didn't say that.

Travis Sliger: [Inaudible 00:32:04].

Todd Miller: So, yeah. So one of the things that I often hear from someone who is in the roofing industry selling asphalt shingles and they're like, "I don't know how to move into metal. I would like to do more metal. I do have people ask me about it, but I don't know how to transition into that." And a couple of things I would say, if there's someone out there who is thinking that, one is very simple, train your appointment setter and make sure that in your company you do have an appointment setter. It's not just whoever happens to answer the phone, but that appointment setter might be doing outbound or incoming calls, might be working a home show, but train them to ask a very simple question. And so they simply, and again, this is for a company who's selling primarily asphalt shingles, train your appointment setter to simply ask, "How long do you intend to stay in the home?"

And if they say anything that sounds like 10 years or more, then you know can come back and say, "Well, one of our customers who intend to stay in their home that long will opt for some of our longer-term roofing materials. Would it be okay when we come out to visit you if we bring some longer-term roofing materials?" And they're absolutely going to say, "Well, sure. That makes sense." I do not at that point suggest introducing metal because they are hearing from every roofing contractor out there that, "Oh, we'll sell you metal also." And so I just say, "Would you be interested in a longer-term product or longer-term solution that we find works in our geographic area?" And they're going to say yes. And now you have converted that asphalt shingle lead into a potential metal job.

Now, beyond that, I do suggest in your in-home presentation, you go in and you do needs analysis and all that type of stuff and you help them look at their roofing options. And I always say, help that homeowner establish their criteria. What do they want to accomplish with their next roof? And then you look at their different options and see whether those options meet those criteria or not. Now, if that homeowner comes down to it and they're like, "Oh, I simply can't afford metal." And there are some people out there, it's out of their budget. What you should do though is in your presentation, plant some seeds to sell an upgraded asphalt shingle. So that might be a better shingle, it might be better flashings, it might be better underlayment, it might be addressing their ventilation needs. But you have done some things to show them, "Okay, well, if you can't get the metal roof that you want, we can do some things to make your asphalt roof perform better."

And now you have just positioned yourself for a more lucrative higher profit asphalt sale if you don't get the metal sale. Obviously, I want people to get the metal sale, but this is just a comfortable way for that contractor who is selling asphalt shingles and they're worried, "I don't know how to do this." And what happens so often with that guy is he goes in and says, "Yeah, metal's going to be about this price." And the homeowner just immediately says, "Oh, well," and then they drop to a different product and it just doesn't go anyplace good. So one of the things that we have really focused on the last couple of years with the growth of metal roofing is not just training guys who want to focus on metal, but training that asphalt shingle guy, how can you bring metal into your business and eventually transition your business to meet the market demand that's out there for metal?

Travis Sliger: 100%. Can I add one more thing?

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah.

Todd Miller: I'd love it.

Travis Sliger: So one thing we like to do is we want the customer to sell themselves. So obviously we have the presentation and whatnot, but a lot of this will come from very pointed questions like we have what's called a pain and frustration based question. We have a future proofing and value-based question, we have a financial reframing question and then there's the ownership and the emotional buy-in questions. But an example would be, say like a pain and frustration-based question is that we sit and you just ask the question, you just shut up.

And it's, "What made you start thinking about replacing your roof in the first place?" You're wanting them to express the pain points, the leaks, the missing shingles, the constant repairs, the rising energy costs. Then you ask them, "How often are you thinking about your roof right now?" You're just taking them down the line where they're answering it, and then they come to the conclusion themselves without you having to try to tell them what they're using. It's like, "Oh, well, maybe we should go with a metal roof." It's like, "Huh, weird."

Todd Miller: That is perfect and that's the whole Donald Miller thing also, bringing people and helping them, guiding them to the best decision. Their concern might be, "Oh, I'm concerned about leaks at the bottom of that valley up in my attic," but their real concern is those family pictures and family heirlooms that are stored in the attic beneath where that leak might occur.

Travis Sliger: 100%.

Todd Miller: And so you're always digging toward that also. Good stuff.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah.

James Develder: Like Travis was saying, you've really got to build up the value and tell a story of metal roofing and why it's worth it, why it's a fit. I had a contractor a long time ago up in the Northern suburbs of Chicago, and he was very excited about selling metal roofing. So we got him all set up. And time went on, he just wasn't selling anything. And I went to him like, "What's going on? What's happening? You're not selling any roofs. What are you doing? What's your presentation?" "Well, I go in with the good, better, best." I go, "That's great. A lot of people do that. Well, what do you do?" "Well, this is the price and yours is the best and here's the price." "Well, what else?" "Well, that's about it." "Well, that's okay. You got to tell why is it the best? What makes it the best? The life cycle, the energy savings, everything else. You got to tell the story. You can't just say, 'Oh, here it is.'" So you've to be informed.

Travis Sliger: Yeah. If you're just presenting price, they're going to go with the cheapest price that they can every time.

James Develder: Yeah, exactly. And without the story, without building up the value, without educating the homeowner, you're not going to sell it.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, Mitch.

Mitch Heitsch: I mean, yeah, Travis, to that point too, the homeowner at that point's going to go with the cheapest that they can. I mean, the purpose of this conversation is how do we get new contractors into this to help spread the awareness of metal roofing and everything that's out there? And Todd made mention of the market share that metal is growing into 15% residential reroofs are going into metal roofing, and so it is a growing segment. I remember what 10 years ago, even, when you'd go walk the IRE floor or you'd go walk FRSA or something, the metal guys were stuck in the back corner and nobody was really talking about metal. Now you walk these floors, it's 50% metal.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah.

Mitch Heitsch: When you see a significant growth in market share like what's happening, and more people talking about it, it comes with challenges because I think you also get a lot of the me tours and you get these guys that are showing up. And so when we talk about new contractors wanting to get into it, I think picking the right partner is one of the most important things that you can do in that scenario. Because look, anybody with a couple million in capital can go out and become a metal manufacturer tomorrow. I mean, there's just so many options for people to get into metal at an affordable rate. But what you don't get with that is warranties, training, support, everything that's going to come along with having the backing of a reputable company to help you out with that. And I think that that's a major, major key to anyone looking to get into it.

Todd has done a great job with training, educating, getting people on board. We've got a nationwide team that's out there training and educating on a daily basis, and that is really what it focuses down to because education is how you sell. Because, again, these homeowners we talk about give the consumer what they want. They don't know what they want other than they're just tired of dealing with this, so it's like how do we get to them to show them, "We've got a major problem in the industry and this is a solution and here's a solution that's going to solve a lot of these things. Now, how do we focus and partner to get together with that?" And I think that it really boils down to picking the right people that are going to stand behind you and are going to help you along that way too, to get you where you need to go with that.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And, Mitch, I want you to keep going because there's one thing where I wanted to take this conversation a little bit too, is that a lot of times when contractors, whether it's asphalt contractors or general contractors, whatever, when they hear metal, they think standing scene, right?

Mitch Heitsch: Or ag panels.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Or ag panels, the complexity of that and learning on the education. But what we're talking about today is really making that first step with building relationships with manufacturers who are doing tile metal, whether that's stone-coated steel or painted tile, aluminum, all those different things. So talk a little bit about, because I really do think there's this fear of your crews. And, Travis, you can probably say, what are your crews going to think when we're asking them all of a sudden to put on a metal roof? But for stone-coated steel and for tiles, that's not a [inaudible 00:41:33].

Mitch Heitsch: We run into this on a daily of people that... And I will never forget sitting down and trying to get somebody into it and saying, "Well, what's your holdup?" I'm going to preface this by saying we're fixing this, but holding up an installation guide and putting it down and saying this. When you explain it and after you get a contractor through the first couple of jobs, the light bulb always goes off and they're always like, "Oh, this is easy. This is way easier than what it looked like on paper." Because when you look at it on paper, yeah, you're just kind of like, "Oh my, hold on. There's different parts and pieces." It goes together like a puzzle, and it just is the easiest... Not even a puzzle, it's like the old the square block goes in the square hole when you're in elementary school kind of thing, it's not even a difficult puzzle.

So I think that getting people over that uncomfortable hump is the biggest thing, because you're going to look at it on paper, you're going to look at it when you're going to talk to your crews and they're going to be like, "Oh, no, I don't want to do that," because it's not familiar to them. And humans by nature, they don't want to change. There's a comfort zone they want to stay in and they don't want to change that. And once you get them over that uncomfortability, because what's going to happen if they're not comfortable with it, is that you're going to go in there as a contractor, you're going to get this homeowner very excited about this product and they're going to want it. And then the guy behind you is going to come in and say, "Oh, no, you don't want that. You want these shingles."

And the homeowner is going to look and say, "Well, he just sold me on these shingles that says it's going to last just as long as the metal and it's half the cost. So why would I do this? Yeah, I'm just going to go with the shingles," because the homeowners don't know, they're not living in it every day like we are. So the more people that we can get pushing metal, to Travis's point, is that yes, are you creating competition with yourself? Sure, you are. But at the same token, you're also creating a whole force of people that are out there speaking the same message and promoting a metal industry that ultimately is going to drive higher margins, higher dollars, higher bottom line and make the companies more money at the end of the day too, while also offering a solution and a service that's going to protect the homeowners. It really is a win-win across the board.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, [inaudible 00:43:56]. James, training, getting people... And I'm going to say with what you're doing too, from diversifying to tile, roof tiles, metal tiles and also siding, metal siding, I mean, you're kind of training. Talk about how do you take that contractor and help them make that transition with their crews, not just the sales part, but also the installation.

James Develder: So, yeah, as Mitch was saying, installation is always the number one hold up when it comes to getting new contractors on board. Who am I going to have install us? So Vicwest does a great job as well as Westlake and Isaiah Industries. We do hands-on training. We will come out to a distributor, have a roof deck, we'll show you how to put it on. I go out to job sites, I've been out to many job sites where I tell the contractor, "Hey, you need me out there? Let me know. I'll schedule time and I'll be out there to walk you through this and make sure it goes on correctly."

When you look at it's really easy, but contractors are afraid of it. I mean, I put my roof on my house and the only thing I knew about roofing was going to all the trainings I'd been to with Gerard and Boral and just seeing it that many times I'm like, "Yeah, I can do this." And I did. So if I can do it, any roofing contractor can do it. It's really not that difficult.
But like Mitch was saying, they look at that install manual, they're like, "Oh my goodness, this looks so difficult." It's really not. So once we get out there and show them how to put it on and some of the dos and don'ts, it really gets a lot easier. And, like I said, for myself, I'm there to help support my contractors with whatever they need. If they need me to come out to the job site, I'll do it. If they have questions, give me a call anytime. If I can't get the answer, I'll get someone who can.

So we're really there to help the contractor and make it as easy as possible to put on that roof because the worst thing you could do is get a contractor, they put on the roof, they don't exactly know what they're doing, they have issues, it leaks and then they're just turned off of metal because that job costed them a fortune, so we want to make sure they do it right.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I want to make sure, and we've had a couple comments already in the chat and great information, a great shout out, Travis, to your website. And so, please, if you have any questions, now's the time, get those in there for them. But, Todd, do you do... Oh, go ahead, Travis. Go first.

Travis Sliger: I was going to add to that last question. I think that's a big pain point for asphalt shingle contractors that's preventing them to move forward is they have their business, it's especially the ones who have some continuity and they're having success and their business is moving in a positive direction, they really want to add metal, they see they're losing market share to metal roofing contractors, they're seeing more metal roofs pop up and they understand that they can add more revenue, more profit, but it's disrupting their operations to try to inject this new thing into their company. So I think what can help going forward is having more turnkey solutions for these contractors, so something that's very plug-and-play. Again, working with strong partners, manufacturers that can help provide some of those things, but if you can provide them with an easy button, you can help them with their installation.

I think as far as the labor side of things goes, the labor force is there. You've got guys installing asphalt shingles with modular panels. The concepts are very similar, so you can attract them that way. You can say, "The concepts are very similar to asphalt shingles. There's going to be a growth curve here, there's going to be a latency period that you're going to have to learn," but in my opinion, you have to really highlight how it can change their life financially. "You're going out and you're putting asphalt shingles on, and you're getting paid X amount and this is here and here's how much volume and how much work you have to do. Well, if you can get skilled and efficient at installing metal, you go to here, you're here."

So you've got to dangle that financial carrot in front of these guys because this job is not easy. It goes from second to third most dangerous job in the world every year, so it has to be financially rewarding for these guys. So you have to dangle that carrot out there and then you have to provide... And I think that there's a big gap as far as those turnkey solutions go, so I think you're going to start to see people start to fill that gap as the time goes, but we need turnkey solutions for these contractors because they want to do metal. They just don't know where to start, and that's causing paralysis by analysis and they're not going to disrupt their profitable business operations to do that until they have, like I said, more of an easy button.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Travis, you are on the right space right now. You see everybody's taking notes like, "Yes, more turnkey." I mean, that's the thing, having the contractors talking to the manufacturers and really talking about, "How do we make this easier? How do we make this better?" But I have to tell you, you kind of gave me a little bit of chills. I love the fact that you addressed that for our labor force, learning metal takes them to a higher level in their craftsmanship and in their skills. That is the truth. And that is something we need to push.

Travis Sliger: Yeah, it's not a commodity. It's not a commodity, it's not like the asphalt shingle. And you'll see there's a different sense of pride at the job completion from when we install a metal shingle versus when we just go out and a homeowner because we'll install asphalt shingles. We'll install asphalt shingles. If the customer cannot afford it, it's not the right fit, but they really want trust me or us and they want to work with us, we'll put an asphalt shingle on, but the crew just packs up and leaves and this is just an asphalt shingle, but when they install a metal shingle, there's more of a standing around afterwards and guys are taking pictures and sharing it on their social media with their friends and family.

I don't know, it's more fulfilling for these guys. They're acquiring this high level skill and they're building something special to them, and they're able to make a very good income, which I wrote that in that first article I wrote for the Coffee Shop and it was, how do we attract younger talent? And I think a lot of younger people or laborers, they feel as though the American dream is out of their reach and here's an opportunity where you can achieve the American dream and it's here. You just got to learn, you got to dive in, you've got to immerse yourself into it and you've got to take some risks. That's always been a part of the American dream, so you got to take some risks and get ahead, so we'll get there.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Wow, I love it. Recruitment, retention, everything right there. All of the things, all the hot topics that we're thinking. We do have a question I want to make sure to get in there, any idea how much metal shingles are growing in the market versus standing seam? Todd, I'd love to throw that your direction.

Todd Miller: Sure.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Any thoughts?

Todd Miller: Yeah, the statistics show that they're growing pretty similarly. They're on similar trajectories. Again, it comes down to what that contractor wants to believe in and what they want to promote. And so you'll have individual markets where metal shingles are the hot thing, and that's leading the market just because you've got a contractor there that's promoting them. You'll have other markets where through-fastened panels are the hot thing or standing seam, so it really comes down a lot to that local contractor, but it seems like everything's on a similar trajectory in terms of overall market growth.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I love it.

Travis Sliger: Yeah. For us, what I see is it's an exposed fastener versus a concealed fastener. And the concealed fastener is there's way more awareness now in the marketplace of between the two. So homeowners want a concealed fastener system, and most of the people that are offering metal roofing right now, it's either exposed fastener ag panel or standing seam and then I think that's what you're seeing. So I think, like we talked about, if they can identify a partner that offers a modular panel and they can start to show it to their homeowner, because this is what we do, we offer standing seam with every homeowner, but modular panels completely flipped standing seam for us. We do maybe two standing seam jobs a year, whereas it used to be the exact opposite.

James Develder: Like I had mentioned before, homeowners don't realize that option's out there. When they think metal, they think standing seam or an ag panel. When they see you can have a shake panel or a tile or a slate that's metal, it just changes everything for them.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Wow. When you just said that, Travis, that kind of and I think everybody kind of went... When you switched from standing seam to tile, metal tiles, in your business, talk just a little bit, we have just a little bit of time, but talk just a little bit about how you made that shift, how hard was that to make that shift in your business? Or was it just purely market demand of once you realized selling it of the benefits?

Travis Sliger: So when we made the shift, you're always trying to have innovative marketing campaigns that can generate more opportunities or we call them shots on base. We want as many shots on base as we can get. So we live in an area where there is a lot of Amish, so there's a lot of Amish, so people are generally aware of standing seam and metal roofing, the traditional look of standing seam and ag panel, so we really pushed both. Anytime we would sit down with the homeowner, we would lay out what we have and then we would make sure that we were showing a sample of the metal shingle, but more so our advertising, our direct-to-the-consumer advertising was not word for word, but it was like, "Did you know that this exists? Do you know that this is something that's available to you?" And then touching on those objections like, "Your metal roof does not have to look like a barn with a picture of a modular panel installed on someone's home."

Mitch Heitsch: But I think Travis is hitting that point that is kind of my elevator pitch whenever I'm telling somebody what it is that I do, which is always, "We sell a metal roof that doesn't have to look like a metal roof." That's really what it is in a nutshell, that you want all the features and benefits, the longevity, the durability. People want metal because they're tired of replacing it. And then here's something that hits all those boxes, but also I think, Travis, you said it when we first started this thing, that typically the wife doesn't want it to look like a barn. And it's funny because we have a barn shown here, but I mean, that's not your typical barn roof, it is such a different architectural versatility of this product that allows it to fit in so many different areas.

Travis Sliger: Yeah, 100%.

Heidi J Ellsworth: When you look at these and you look at all the different opportunities, that's why I wanted to just kind of go through those pictures, it's amazing how it looks and then the performance, the energy savings, the durability, everything you've talked about and it's an easier step installation-wise, so something really for everybody to look at. In our last few minutes, what I'd like to do is I'd like to just go around and give your last for all the contractors and other folks on here who are looking, give a little bit of advice. Go ahead, Mitch.

Mitch Heitsch: Well, I was going to say, are there questions in the Q&A?

Heidi J Ellsworth: Oh, did I miss it? I'm sorry. Thank you.

Mitch Heitsch: There was one more.

Heidi J Ellsworth: There was one more. Okay, perfect. Yes, "Metal's great, doing it for 20-plus years. What are your thoughts on the composite materials, recycled rubber, tile, roofing and synthetics? We are very profitable with these options also."

Mitch Heitsch: So I will go ahead and take that one if you don't mind, because I also see that there's the Q&A about thoughts about Florida insurance companies considering reducing asphalt shingles, things like that. But in thoughts of other products that are out there, I think it kind of ties into the same conversation we're having here of there's a problem in the industry and there's solutions that are out there. We are specifically talking about the metal options that are out there. I think that when you get into regionality areas, certain products can fit different ways and I think that was Travis and Todd's point of find the solution. If the solution isn't necessarily, it's a Unified Steel roof, I would pray that everyone would be, but it's not going to happen. That solution might be a synthetic, it might be a concrete tile.

Look, I'm in Florida and that I think ties into this Q&A question. Concrete is a major, major player down here and it will continue to be a major player because it's a great roofing product. It's a very affordable one that goes on new construction and things like that, and gives people more of that permanent solution. I think that everything boils to how good is the install? I think that the concrete has kind of gotten a bad name in recent years because you had older roofs, 30-year-old roofs, things like that, that were coming off in the hurricane and making damage. But you look at any newly constructed concrete roof, it's a great system and it's a great product. I think that everyone's just looking for permanent solutions and these other products that are out there, composites, things like that.

Again, I'm going to go back to the original point that I made earlier. As a homeowner, they're going to want to vet their contractor, they're going to look up Travis's company, they're going to look and see how long has he been in business, reviews that are out there, things like that. I pray that every homeowner and every contractor does the same thing with every manufacturer that they're looking at partnering with as well, because I think that the company that stands behind it is a big part of the selection process that you have to have. Getting into the thought about the insurance company stuff with reducing asphalt shingles, if you paid any attention to the news, you've this coming. All the conversation pieces of shingles being banned in Florida ain't going to happen. You need to have an affordable option, but that's exactly what it is, it's an affordable temporary option and then you transition into a longer term play on that end. Sorry, I got on my soapbox there for a little while, but there was a lot of information coming that I wanted to hit on high level.

Heidi J Ellsworth: No, that's great and I'm sorry I didn't see the Q&A. For some reason it was hidden on my screen, so thank you, Mitch, so much. So if you want to talk a little bit more about Florida insurance, Mitch is like the perfect person too, and maybe gentlemen, if you could in the chat, just put your contact information so that if people want to get ahold of you, because we also had a question on any recommendations for brands of metal shingles. And thank you, James, we have Vicwest, Westlake and Isaiah Industries on here. Also, on MetalCoffeeShop, you can see we have a directory full of manufacturers who are providing excellent solutions along with MRA, Metal Roofing Alliance, also has their manufacturers on there who are providing great solutions. So, again, doing your research, much like Mitch had already said.

We did have one last question, "How do you overcome the walkability and saltwater exclusions?" I'm going to ask just because we are at the top of the hour, I don't want you to think that I was ignoring that question, I kind of just lost it for a minute, but if you have questions, just email me, heidi@rooferscoffeeshop.com and I'll get you with the experts to talk a little bit about that. So, gentlemen... Oh, Travis, go ahead.

Travis Sliger: Yeah, I don't know if I have any time. I wanted to help add to Ryan's question about composite materials, rubber, synthetics.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yes.

Travis Sliger: He's mentioned that they're profitable with those. I think it goes back to just educating the homeowner. Did they call you? Did they spec that material out or were you presenting that as an option and making them aware of that? As far as metal roofing versus those things, metal roofing versus a synthetic, I think metal roof's going to last between 40 to 70 years, synthetics are around 30 to 50. The biggest things I think are going to be the weight, metal is much lighter than especially like a rubber product and it's recyclable at the end, same as rubber and it's a little bit more resistant, I think, to wind.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Excellent.

Travis Sliger: So, those things. And if it's what the homeowner wants and you feel good about providing them, fitting with their wants and needs and they can afford it and you can make more money, I think at the end of the day, I named my company Forever Metal Roofing because I wanted people who were in there forever home, so I wanted to provide a permanent solution for someone who was in their forever home. Most people are going to live... 30 to 50 years is going to probably accomplish that, so I think if you can be more profitable with something like that and you feel like you can install it correctly and warranty it and provide that homeowner with a permanent solution and you can be more profitable from it, great. Yeah.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I love it. I just want to say thank you, thank you so much. This has been so great. The questions are coming in. If I haven't received some of these questions, we will pull these and we will get folks in touch with you. We just had one come in from Justin on AI.

We're out of time, but we will and we'll probably make this possibly our next Coffee Conversations, Justin, so stay tuned and we'll also get you some answers there. Gentlemen, again, thank you so much. Amazing, amazing. Thank you.

Mitch Heitsch: Thank you for having me and Go Chiefs.

James Develder: Thanks for having me.

Outro: There you go. And I want to say very special thank you to Metal Roofing Alliance for sponsoring this and for bringing all this great information together. Check them out, please, on the directory on MetalCoffeeShop, look up Metal Roofing Alliance along with all of these gentlemen and their companies, you'll find them on MetalCoffeeShop. And we will be seeing you again next quarter for the next Coffee Conversations on MetalCoffeeShop. Stay tuned. We can't wait to see you then. Have a great day.