Strategies and Tactics to Win the Roofing Talent War - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of an live interview with Luke McCormack from McCormack Partners. You can read the transcript below, listen to the full episode or watch the webinar.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Hello and welcome to MetalCoffeeShop's MetalTalk. My name is Heidi Ellsworth and we are going live today, not only right here on this Zoom, but we are also live on LinkedIn for the very first time for a very special guest and a great topic. We are very excited today to have Luke McCormack here to talk about strategies and tactics to win the roofing talent war. We have a labor shortage. We know that and we know that we need to be smarter. It's about marketing, it's about really the culture and there is no one better than Luke to share the tips and tricks on how to really build that culture to get retention of that talent.

So today, this is what we're going to be talking about. First, a few housekeeping. This is being recorded and it will be available within 24 hours. We also are going to have the chat open, and we would love this as always to be a conversation. So please let us know where you're at and who you are and what you're doing. We are going to get started. Again, welcome to all of those on LinkedIn for our very first live LinkedIn MetalTalk. So I am so excited to introduce Luke McCormack. Luke, welcome to the show.

Luke McCormack: Heidi, thank you so much for having me. Very excited to get started.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I am too. I love this topic and you have been doing this for so long. You are such an expert. So before we dive in, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us about your company.

Luke McCormack: Certainly. So yeah, my name is Luke McCormack. For the past decades, I have been recruiting managerial and executive talent into the global roofing industry. About two years ago, I moved the business from the UK to the US. I come from a family roofing background. My father had his own contracting firm, and then he went to work in supply. So very early on in life, I had an appreciation for what it takes to make a contracting business tick and how the fuel supply chain connected together through manufacturing. Basically, Heidi, I noticed a gap in the market that there's all these roofing companies that they want to grow, they want to get to the next level, but there was no company set up as an ethical specialist provider that could assist them in doing that by supplying them staff members. So what I'd basically done was carved out this niche in the roofing industry. And for about almost 10 years now, we've been helping contractors, distributors, manufacturers grow by supplying them with managerial to executive level talent across sales, marketing, operations and finance.

A big part of the business as well is the People Make Roofing campaign, and we'll get into this further as the talk goes on, but roofing is such a great industry and sometimes it can be seen as the dirty cousin of construction. People think roofing is dirty, outdated, dead end, no career prospects, no money to get made and those people could not be further from the truth. The purpose of People Make Roofing is to shine a light on the money that can get made in roofing, the career paths, but most importantly the people that make this roofing so great. Since April 2021, I have funded the People Make Roofing campaign where I have spoken at schools, colleges, universities and I've interviewed people from within the roofing industry, people that were previous US congressmen to roofers that built extremely successful businesses to people who were a receptionist in a roofing firm that then became COO.

So I'm really passionate about shining a light on the people that make roofing so that school teachers, parents, career guidance counselors so that they're not clouded by these outdated negative connotations of roofing and they actually know what roofing can do as a career for their kids or even for them professionally. So we've helped bring people in apprenticeship level. We've helped bring people into roofing from other trades and we're here to shine a light on the vast array of people in roofing as well as to help companies grow by helping them find specialist staff from within the industry.

So yeah, very passionate about the industry, but today the one thing that I do know is recruitment and roofing. And all I want to do today is bring value to the business owners or the people in the industry that are watching this. I just want them to know that I'm on their side and the strategies, the tactics, the insight that I've got from recruiting and roofing for the past 10 years, I want to share that with everyone because the more the industry grows, the better it is for me, the better it is for them and the better it is for the world.

So yeah, that's me. That's what we do, and I'm very grateful to be on board. My first LinkedIn Live, our first LinkedIn Live. So yeah, very much looking forward to getting started.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Excellent. I am so excited about this and this topic and everything you bring to it. And I have to say I was one of those interviews with People Make Roofing, and so I was very honored to be a part of that. So thank you for bringing such a great view to that. Okay, I want to remind everybody the chat is open. I also want to remind everybody this is being streamed live on LinkedIn, so we are very excited about all of that. Please let us know who you are, what kind of company you have, where you're from and be sure to ask questions as we go or make comments. Let us know what you think. Okay, so let's start at the very beginning, Luke, what are the recruiting challenges that are out there?

Luke McCormack: Certainly. Obviously within the roofing industry itself, we do have a generation gap. We do have a skill shortage. We do have a decrease in new blood joining in the industry. I believe the status for every 10 people that leave, only one person joins. As I've just spoken about, there is extremely outdated perception issues about what roofing is. That stops not just new labor coming into the market, but also people from other professions that can come into, estimator, project manager, sales positions. The industry itself, the prices are good enough for materials. The prices are good enough for trucks, the prices are good enough for labor. There's lowball pricing, there's more codes and regulations. It's getting harder and harder to grow a roofing firm because of this. But what is a company? It's a group of people and the supply-demand issue at the moment means that the companies that aren't well-known, that aren't educated in how to recruit or how to make themselves stand out.

Sadly, they're just not able to get these A-player staff members from within the industry. And the thing is with recruitment as well, Heidi, 10 years ago, if you were recruiting in the industry, be it was for a roofer, an estimator, project manager, if you posted a job, you would probably have about three or four candidates to choose from. But now there's been a complete paradigm shift. Now when one good candidate is on the market, there's about three or four different companies competing for them. So that's obviously an issue. And these roofing business owners, 49.2% of American roofing contracting firm business owners, they're baby boomers. In 2029, the youngest will be 65. And if they've ever had a problem with money coming into the business, they have developed the right strategy. They've done the things that they had to do to bring in new clients. If they've got a quality issue on site, they would deal with that and they would get it done.

The recruitment part of it seems to be a gap because I can't blame them for not adapting. But if you're not adapting and you're not evolving, it doesn't send a great message to the rest of your company and it will stop you from growing. So, commitment to actually focusing on recruitment, committing to seeing this as a crisis, which it is and doing something about it. For the people that have chosen to be here today, they're being proactive. They're taking that first step to try and solve this recruitment issue. But there's so many challenges in the industry from the people leaving to the perception to all the other problems that the industry faces.

But the good news is it doesn't need to be like this. There's a lot of short-term strategies and long-term things that you can implement so that you can turn back time and you can be that employer of choice where you do have people lining up to work for you. And before we get into it, just like you said there, the chat is open, we don't have enough time today for me to share everything that I've learned, but if there's anyone there thinking this is the one thing that I would like to learn in the next hour, please put it in the chat and we'll do our best to answer it.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yes. Yeah, that's so true. If you have something like, "This is really my recruiting problem," let us know what that is so that Luke can address it. We're going to be kind of going high level, but of course we're going to get some good nuggets for everybody to take back. So understanding the challenges, the labor shortage, we know that's key. And Luke, I agree with you so much in the fact that there has to be a cultural shift if you want to not just recruit but retain your employees because there is such a job market out there right now that if it's not a good culture, if they're not taken care of, there's a lot of jobs out there for really good roofing professionals.

Luke McCormack: A hundred percent, Heidi. I don't think we've actually got a slide on retention, so I'll just drop some knowledge on that then now. So over the past 10 years, my recruiters are calling hundreds of candidates every week from within the roofing industry. Most of these candidates reject the call, but from the ones who do answer or call, I want to share with you the three reasons as to why they do it. And that means that you as a roofing business owner can look out for these signs and you can then retain your employees and then you never need to call a recruiter like me. But on the flip side, your company will grow more and it'll all be good. So the number one reason Heidi is stagnation. If people aren't growing, they're leaving.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Right.

Luke McCormack: For me personally, the first business that I worked in in recruitment, there was no investment, there was no training, there was no development, there was nothing that was given to me to help me get better.

And because of that, in the end I ended up leaving. And obviously we don't want that to happen. I left and set up my own firm. So what I do now to make sure that my employees are growing personally and professionally is I bring in experts from the US roofing industry to train them, guys that have been in the industry for about 20 years and they're telling my staff the difference between chucking a truck, storm chaser, premium contractor, a GC, the difference between reroofing service, new construction, the difference between all the different products. And that means that when they're then looking at the market holistically, they can quickly go to a company shortlist and find the right individuals. I've also got another guy who trains the staff, Chris Czarnik, who you know very well, and Chris has been working in recruitment the last 30 years, his processes of recruitment have been implemented by Congress.

And what Chris has taught us is how to pinpoint the emotional drivers of why candidates leave jobs so that when we speak to them, we can actually find out under the hood, what is it that truly matters to you? Do your values align with the company that we have here? Because if we just give a candidate to a company because they've got the right resume, but they're not a cultural fit, it won't last. So I am always trying to invest in them personally or professionally. And for roofing business owners, there's so much that they can do to invest into their employees so that they're growing. It doesn't always need to be more money, they just need to feel like they're growing, be that, get into new divisions, get into different positions, being given more responsibility. People really do cherish that growth. I'm sure you've seen it yourself, Heidi, that have you ever worked for a company before and there's no growth, you feel stagnant, so you then look for a change. So just focusing on your employees and making sure that they are growing, that's one way to stop them from leaving.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, I think that's so important, and it leads us right into what the consequences are of not hiring, because I mean you need to be in front of this. If you have developed this culture and you are doing all the right things, you're going to grow. So let's talk just a little bit about some of the consequences of people who are like, "I'm just going to hold off on hiring," and not making it part of their ongoing everyday culture.

Luke McCormack: Yeah, Heidi, there's so many direct consequences of not hiring as well as indirect ones. If you're not hiring and you don't have enough people in your company to do these projects, there's going to be delays. There's going to be overruns. If one employee is doing the job of two people, that's going to increase your employee turnover rate. It's going to affect their mental health, it's going to affect the growth of the business. At the end of the day, it's going to affect the quality that the end client receives. It's going to reduce the workmanship and it just becomes this vicious cycle.

Also, if you're in a company and the company isn't growing, i.e., they're not hiring. And then you see your competitors and they're invested in bringing people in from other companies, people from trade schools, people from colleges, that looks like the winning team and everyone wants to be on the winning team. And by not hiring, if you're not growing, you're not evolving, you're moving backwards. So there's so many consequences to the message it sends to the rest of the market, the message it sends to your staff members and the message it sends to your clients as well. So it really is a big issue that people need to be proactive about sorting out.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. And it takes care of your customers. And speaking of which, Justin, thank you. I forgot to ask, so Luke, you had said there were three reasons why people leave or stay and you said stagnation was the first one, but did you mention the second and third?

Luke McCormack: I did not. I did not. So again, this is based on my recruiters calling people in the roofing industry for the past 10 years. Number one is stagnation. Number two is a massive life change. Now this could be someone's passed away and new babies come into the world. There is a new level of professional development they've had. Heidi, when your first kid came, did that make you reevaluate everything?

Heidi J Ellsworth: Right, yes.

Luke McCormack: And when you think about that, that is going to happen inevitably, the people in your business, their mother or father may pass away. It might be the birth of their first child. And how you respond to that as an employer, it says a lot. When they have a baby, do you say congratulations and that's it? Or do you get a basket and send it out to their wife or send it to the home? And say it's a guy in your business, you could get a basket and send it to his wife. And it could be things just for the mother just so that they know we are on your side. And that ties in pretty well to a quote that the US Army use and it's "Recruit the soldier, retain the family." All these little things over time, that's 20 bucks for that basket, but I guarantee you that you'll probably be the only employer who's ever been thoughtful enough to do that.

And what that means that inevitably when your employee does get a call from a recruiter or they maybe have a bad day and they decide to look elsewhere, the family will act as a shock absorber and they'll actually be saying, "Well, listen, think of all the small things that they've done for us. We don't know if this next employer is going to treat us the same way." And the one thing that I've learned, Heidi, is when people leave jobs, it's an emotional decision. It's not a financial decision. We had a candidate the other week there and our client had offered them 40,000 more on a base and were like, "It's a deal." But it wasn't a deal because the people that he worked with, he'd known since school.

And when you get to a certain stage in your career, as business owners, we think just throw money at the problem, that'll solve it. But it is not the case.

Heidi J Ellsworth: No.

Luke McCormack: And when someone's went through that life change, you truly need to be there to support them. And the last one is a bad boss or a toxic work culture. I'm sure everyone's heard the quote, "People don't lead bad companies, they lead bad bosses." And it's so true. And there's a lot that you can do to counteract that. You can give the bosses active listening training. You can make sure that they are a cultural fit to that organization. It might not be a bad culture, you might just not fit into it. And we will get into cultural fit and how you can assess that. But yeah, if people aren't growing, they start leaving. If people don't mesh to the culture because they don't get on with their boss, if their boss doesn't have the right management skills, they start leaving. And yeah, massive life change. People look for change. So stagnation, life change, bad boss/toxic culture.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I have to tell you, I've had all those things happen in my career over the last 30 years and life changes, bad bosses. And the thing is you're going to go somewhere else where they are good. And so Luke, I am really excited and sorry if I looked like I was distracted, it's because we're getting some great questions coming in from LinkedIn and it goes right with what you're just talking about. Now, one of the questions from LinkedIn is you've talked about cultural fit quite often in previous webinars. What can roofing owners do to create a better culture to attract top talent? And you're touching on it, so let's go a little bit deeper.

Luke McCormack: A hundred percent. So in terms of creating a culture, a lot of the time you've already got a culture, you've already got certain type of individuals working in your business and culture is grown by the team getting closer together. So we do have a slide on cultural fit, so I'll come back to that question when we get to the cultural fit slide, so we're not going back and forth, but we'll definitely get that covered.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Perfect. And we have another question that we're going to cover here in just a minute too on technology. So everyone, keep asking those questions. We've got the whole team here looking at all the different places and comments. So thank you so much. Okay, great. Let's talk a little bit, and I think this kind of goes to that culture that you just were talking about too, but adjusting recruitment processes. What should roofing companies be doing different than what they've done in the past?

Luke McCormack: Yeah, so you're right, this does tie into culture and your culture is defined to your mission, your vision, your values, your non-negotiables. But this one is really interesting. So, I spoke to a candidate today who was offered a job by one of my clients yesterday, and he now starts on Monday, and this client moved so quickly, almost too quick and he couldn't be happier. When I spoke to Paul, he had another company who he had a first stage interview with and he was waiting to hear back about second stage. This was five weeks ago. And I see this so often where companies recruitment processes are drawn out over 5, 6, 7 weeks. And a lot of the basis of what I'm trying to teach business owners is put yourself in the candidate's shoes, moving house, child being born, job change, read the most stressful things in life.

And when someone has made that emotional decision to potentially join your organization and you're letting all this time pass between first interview and second interview, you're leaving them in limbo. You're giving the impression to them that you can't make a decision or you don't care enough about them. And when the best candidates come onto the market, they're gone quickly because of the supply and demand issue. Generally I would say hire slow, fire fast, but we don't have that luxury in roofing. There's too much of a supply and demand issue that when a good candidate's heart leaves the door, his head soon follows, he then starts to get interviews and honestly it's like two, three weeks from when they start looking to when they've got a new position. So if you've got a big drawn-out recruitment process, it really is going to put candidates off.

And I'm sure a lot of people have said, "Well, we thought we had the guy, but we weren't quick enough." And honestly, we see it happen every single month. I think as well, recruitment in itself is something that a lot of people can be reactive to, like I said about the business owner, treat it like a client problem or a quality problem. Don't just delegate it to HR, it's your business, it's your baby. You need to be proactive about scouting out the market, finding the best candidates to go for, not just relying on the people that you've got saved in your phone. And market rate is a big thing as well. Market rate has changed so much from 10 years ago to today. Some people would argue that some candidates aren't worth what they're now asking for.

It's not really what matters. The market dictates that people are now on higher salaries. It's also not all about money, it is about work-life balance, it's about the benefits package, it's about how they're going to get treated. So actually being competitive in your offering, you need to know what is market rate and if you want the best people, you need to pay a little bit above it. If you're in a roofing association, these associations are so collaborative, you can easily phone a few people and ask them, "What is market rate for a project manager in that area? Are people still paying commission structures annually? Because these five other companies are paying annually, but this one's paying it quarterly. The bills come monthly." So when you start actually adding all that up, you can have a clearer look on what it takes to win just like you would if it was a bid.

Those reports out there from consultants, we personally have got a lot of information on market rate across the entire states and what average bonus structures are, average benefits packages and I'm happy to answer that for anyone. But before you start out looking for fish, find out what they want, find out how to make yourself competitive and it can stop you from wasting a lot of your time, taking someone through a process and then they either being disheartened or it just falling off altogether because you then realize that you can't afford them. So truly understanding what market rate is will allow you to be more competitive, which will increase your hiring success.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Right, right. I mean it makes sense and this world is fast and people are fast. And if you're not at that, you're not going to get the best people, because like you said, they come onto the market and they're gone because everyone's looking. I think also and this is one of the questions that just came through that it goes with this, but it was how can roofing companies leverage technology to streamline recruitment process and attract potential hires? And here we are, right here with differentiate yourself. So talk a little bit about this with job ads, how they're doing it. This is the stuff that can really help give roofing companies a tactical tool to use.

Luke McCormack: Yeah, absolutely. So when it comes to job ads, now there's a lot of job boards out there which work well for roofing vacancies, Indeed, Monster, Resume-Library. There's lots of them. And when you post your ad on one job board, it actually filters through to 10 other job boards. So they do work, but sometimes it doesn't get you the A-player that you want, but they do work. Now the problem is if you've got a job ad out there right now, say you're a roofing company in Dallas and you need a project manager, go and type into Google roofing project manager Dallas jobs and tell me if you can find your job ad. The thing is that most job ads are written again from what we want the owner's perspective. We want an estimator that can estimate seven projects a week using this system, working with these people, doing this.

And it's like you're telling an estimator what his job is. There's no value in this. You're just writing down the duties of what it is. This ad is your opportunity to differentiate yourself, it's benefits-led selling. So when you're writing your job ad, don't write it the same as every other company out there. Write in the job ad what's in it for the candidate, what is unique about your company that would attract to this candidate. Is it the growth that you've been through? Is it the fact that you give this flexibility, you pay above market rate? As a business, we do all these things together. Maybe it's the values of your organization. When you're writing your job ads, think about what's in it for the candidate, not what you want from the candidate. Honestly, 99 out of a hundred companies do not do this. Funnily enough, I was in a company website today and I looked at their job ad and as soon as I opened it, it all read what's in it for the candidate.

And I was just like, "These guys have nailed it." And it's just these simple little things that truly do make a big difference because there is people out there looking for a new job and if they see your ad and it's the same as every other one out there, doesn't even have a salary on it, why would they apply to you over someone else? And to go a bit further on this as well, Heidi, if you look at Indeed, Monster, all these websites, you've got the opportunity to make a company profile. And so little companies do it, but you've already got all your branding, you've already got it on your website. So if you start to build that profile online, which makes you look like a responsive employer, someone that does care about the hiring process and careers, that will differentiate you as well.

And it's such a simple thing that you could do in two hours, but a lot of companies, particularly in roofing, don't do it. And it doesn't cost any money to do it. These job boards give you that employer page for free. So, populate it, don't speak about you, speak about what you can give these candidates and I promise you, you will see more candidates coming through that are suitable to you, that want to work for you. And you'll already nail the first impression, which is so important. There's so much more, but there's a few top tips that people can implement today.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Well, and I can say because we have our classified ads on MetalCoffeeShop and on RoofersCoffeeShop, and Luke, exactly, we see when people come in and post their jobs on the classifieds that if they use a video with it, it grabs more attention. And you can put a video on there if they have benefits. And going back to the question that was just asked about technology, I know there's the technology of there's HR software out there and there's recruitment software and like you said, you can put it on one job board and it goes to a whole bunch of them. But I think to your point, another thought on the technology front is in your job descriptions mention what technologies you use. Do you use Estimating EDGE? Do you use Java? What kind of tools are you putting out there that is going to attract? Because I think especially with younger generation, they want to make sure that this is all on apps and they're doing it through technology and not a clipboard.

Luke McCormack: That's a great point, Heidi, because say for example, the company uses EDGE version 12 and they need someone to start, they don't have enough time to train them, but they interview, they estimate, they bring him through the process, he's not yet v12, sorry, just write that on your job ad from the start and then you'll only get applicant and you can put screening questions. Do you have five years’ experience working with single ply? Do you have experience working on multi-million dollar projects? Do you have experience working with EDGE version 12? What that then means is the only candidates that can actually get through, there'll be the inevitable that just say yes to everything, but there'll be a much higher percentage of people that are actually suitable as opposed to people that are just applying to everything. So that's another small thing that does make a difference.

Heidi J Ellsworth: [inaudible 00:33:14]. We have a question from the previous slide that I just want to make sure we don't go past and thank you, Jenna, so much for this question is where do you generally look to know industry standard on pay? So where is a place, where would they get that information?

Luke McCormack: So that's the problem with the roofing industry. And this isn't just America, this is globally, there isn't really anywhere. There isn't an association that's put it all out. There isn't a government that has got it all out. There is some consulting firms that will give general average salaries for general construction, but they'll break it down with residential, commercial, industrial construction and they'll perhaps break it down by state. But for roofing, it genuinely doesn't, not that I know of, it doesn't exist. The way that we figure it out is we just start, so say we've got a project manager position in Georgia, we'll phone 10 project managers and then we'll say to the client, "Right, there's 10 guys here. The ones that have got 20 plus years’ experience around this, the ones that have got five are on this, the ones that have got 10 are on this."

And that's how we help them make an informed decision about what market rate is. Because unfortunately there isn't a guide anywhere for the roofing industry that I know of anyway. And we are in the process of developing our own, but we don't want to put something out there which we're not a hundred percent set on. So we're probably about six, seven months at least away from being able to publish that and knowing it's accurate. So you can stay tuned for that. But as far as I know, there is nothing.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And I would say, Jenna, I know in the past, NRCA, of their members, they've done surveying of their members for wage, but I don't think they've done it in the last couple years. So you may want to check out NRCA, but I might be showing my age, that might be a couple years old.

Luke McCormack: I believe the NRCA have asked the question, they've asked the question to all their members, but they've not had enough people respond to allow them to put an accurate report together. So they'd ask the question, but then the companies aren't, they don't have the time or whatever, they've not responded. So I believe that that's why it doesn't exist because the NRCA can only build it if they've got the information. And I don't think too many people have been proactive in providing that information.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, it's interesting. And we have more questions coming in, but I'm going to go ahead and go to this next one. Trust me, LinkedIn, Zoom, we're going to get to all your questions. Okay, let's talk, and this really goes back to that question we asked earlier about branding and about culture. I mean it all still goes together. So what should they be doing around branding? And again, the technology question we had too, how are companies really making themselves attractive to new employees?

Luke McCormack: Yeah. Let me answer the employer branding side. So we spoke a lot about culture, about branding, putting yourself out there on social media. I want to give you an insight into how we recruit. So when I am with a client, Heidi, and they give us a job, these are all the questions that we ask them in order to create an elevator pitch to give to candidates. So we want to know when was the company established? Who are the main people that got the company to where it is now? What is the vision for the future? Where can this particular role make an impact in that vision for the future? What are the personalities and key characteristics of the people that last long in the business in that role? What examples of personal or professional development do you have within your company? Someone who maybe started as a super, now he's an operations manager, someone started as a boy, he's now a man.

What do you do together outside of work? What do you do for the community? All these things truly do paint a picture on that is your employer brand. So if you can get all that information together, if you're one of the uncommon companies who are willing to put yourself behind a camera and create a video and put it on LinkedIn, you are going to stand out above everyone. LinkedIn has a content problem. There's not enough people creating content. Too many people are consuming it. In such an incestuous industry as roofing, if you start interviewing your employees, if you as the owner go behind the camera and you put that out there, you will attract people like you and that is your employer brand. And not everyone is to do it. It may be a generational thing, but for the ones who do, they don't need our help to recruit.

They've created a recruitment machine within their business. Everyone knows they're recruiting. They've got on their email signatures. We are always hiring for good quality people that want fair pay. They've got it over their website, they've got it over their trucks. If you're recruiting and no one knows, they're not going to find you. So doing all those things does supercharge your employer brand, but it'll also help you get clients. When you're being proactive and you're getting out there and you're shining a light on your people, it makes your people prouder to be part of your organization. It makes other people want to be part of it. And to clients as well, it shows that you're different from everyone else. So there are a few things that you can do in terms of technology.

So ChatGPT for example is a new piece of software, which I don't know if everyone knows about it, but you can basically ask ChatGPT any question in the world and it will give you an answer. If you ask ChatGPT, what is the most important thing to estimators in Florida when looking for a job change? It will go and find out. If you ask ChatGPT to write you a job description, if you say to ChatGPT, "Read my company website and write me a job description for a business development manager to sell to general contractors in this area," it can do that for you. It can literally do anything. So ChatGPT is a very important tool that if you're able to harness it correctly, it can really help you recruit yourself.

Heidi J Ellsworth: It is amazing. And I'm going to say just to this, I mean we have contractors on RoofersCoffeeShop and MetalCoffeeShop that include video in their classified ads. They have video in their directories, their profiles basically. Luke, you are a hundred percent right. It makes such a difference and it makes them stand out and I think we see everyone doing more research nowadays. And so as they're researching your company, you want to make sure you look good everywhere you're at, your directories, your website, everywhere with everything you're doing. So we do have a question here, and I think just so you know, these are coming in from LinkedIn. I'm going to hold off on this question because I think it's going to get somewhat answered here, but we will get back to it. So let's first go, and this goes back to our very first question on the cultural fit, and they were asking, "What can roofing owners do to create a better culture to attract top talent?"

Luke McCormack: Right, okay. So the culture of your organization is defined by your why. I'm sure everyone's seen the, if you haven't, you should watch it, Simon Sinek, and it's about defining your why. We all know what we do, but do we know why we do it? Is it to keep families like Charles Antis? He knows his why, he knows his mission, you know the values of his organization and I could probably reiterate that it's keeping families safe and dry. That is their why. And culturally, what are they? They're people that they do things for the community. He got the Ronald McDonald thing running. He does so much. So from an outsider looking in, you know what his culture's like, you know their why, you know their mission. So you create your culture by defining your why, defining your mission, defining your values, defining your non-negotiables.

When it comes to bringing people into your business that fit your culture, I've got a really interesting way that you can do it. And again, I learned this from Chris Czarnik. So I've done this in my business. I've hired people who did great resumes, really experienced from recruitment, but it just never worked out. And I started to define the ideal employee avatar. So the way that I'd done this was if you think of your best employee someone that if you could just clone this person and have 30 of them, you would invite this person in for an interview and tell them the reason that we are interviewing you is because we want more people like you. Ask them about their hobbies, ask them about their interests, ask them about their values. That starts to build the picture. But then what you can also do is go onto the website and you can ask this individual to do a personality test.

This personality test will take about 10 minutes and by the end of it you will have a report on what personality type this person is, what people they mesh well with, what people they clash with, how to get the best out of them, how to make sure you retain them, how to make sure that they stay. And since I've implemented this, Heidi, the majority of my staff are protagonists. They want agency, they want autonomy, they want a vision, they want to be pushed, they want to be developed, they want transparency. So that is what my culture is. It's a culture of people that are operating with extreme urgency, that have got high morals, that want autonomy, that want to be part of something bigger than them. And that is kind of what we are. So by doing that, you can define what you've already got.

It goes back to the interview thing. It might be that you need to interview some... First interview is Monday and you can't interview someone else until next Friday. It's not ideal. But what you can do is in the middle of those two interviews is you can email the candidate and say, "Listen, it's not just about the resume. We recruit on personality and then train on skill. It's important to us that you're happy here. We would like you to do this personality test so that we can learn a bit more about you, how to get the best out of you and to make sure that you'll be happy here." What it does is you can tell if this person will mesh with your team, it shows the candidate that you care more than just them being a bum in a seat. But it also keeps the communication going.

So I think using 16Personalities to define cultural fit and also to give more touch points throughout the recruitment process. Again, it's free. It is a simple thing that I know firsthand makes a big impact. You could also get a DISC done, but that's like a 17-page report. It's a lot more in depth. It does cost money. Not everyone is skilled in how to read them. So my advice would be go to 16personalities.com and also listening to Simon Sinek to find your why. And you'll be able to define the culture off the back of that. And I mean, you look at all your staff and you ask them what's important to them, there might be things that you could implement that wouldn't cost money or take up too much time that would make a massive impact in their lives, in the growth trajectory of your company and the happiness of everyone in the room. So yeah, that's what I would advise.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I love it. I love it. And we've been putting some things in the chat, 16personalities.com, the DISC testing, there's people in the industry who do some of that, but Luke said there's definitely some costs there. We have a question here on what advice would you give to someone who isn't a US citizen but sees an interesting opportunity in a roofing restoration company? Are there specific steps they should take in their application to make them a strong candidate? So we have somebody watching who wants to get into roofing and restoration.

Luke McCormack: Yeah, absolutely. So I would say speak to Trent Cotney. If you want to work in the American roofing industry and you live in Canada for example, you will need to get the company to sponsor your visa. So you're working in America for this company, and if you want to stand out and you're approaching companies, you want to approach them and say, "I've already spoken with a lawyer, this is how long the process will take for me to get a visa after you give me a job offer. This is what the cost associated with getting a visa is, and all you need to do is call this guy."

So it can easily be done depending on where you are, but be proactive. Don't give them hoops to jump through to hire you. Make it easier for them. So do your due diligence. ChatGPT is good, but I would say reach out to Trent Cotney and ask someone at his firm about this process, how long it takes, how much it costs and then bring this information to your employer and then allow them to meet the decision on if they think it's worth it or not.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And I think it's interesting too because they had also said the same person, and hopefully that all helped coming from LinkedIn, but specifically they're looking at Xactimate writing, which again goes back to your point for both the employer and the employee that if you have special skills, if you're looking for special skills, if you're looking for Xactimate specialist, that it's really important then to put that in your resume or put it in your job description so that people know that you have that and what they want. So great questions, great questions out there. And we are putting a lot of those links in the chat so that you can get those as we go through. Okay, so what we want to do is talk about, and you've touched on some of these, Luke, but the common pitfalls to avoid during recruitment process. What are some of the things people should be careful not to do?

Luke McCormack: So, I think just reiterating a lot of what we've said, Heidi, it's avoided the lengthy and disorganized recruitment processes. And I'm not saying this to cause a stir. I'm saying put yourself in the candidate shoes. Think about how emotionally challenging it can be for them to be in limbo and not knowing where the next step. Some people would advise, have a touch point with them every four to eight hours, but don't leave people in the lurch if you're seriously considering them, but you've just got some other things that take priority, they will respect that. You're a business owner at the end of the day. We had this happen last week and we say to them, "Listen, this candidate's going through a lot. He's done a lot for you. He's jumped through hoops. Just pick up the phone." And that guy got a job offer last night and accepted it.

So just be transparent and think of what the candidates are going through. Be clear in your job description. If you are paying 70 to 90 and then you offer them 60, it's like you can't do that without giving them a really sour taste in their mouth. So everyone knows that salary is dependent on experience, and I would advise if you put the salary in your job ad, your job description, but even if you don't want to advertise that to the world, let the candidate know because at the end of the day, money makes the world go round and people do have bills to pay. And the more transparent that you can be with them in terms of what the salary is, what's in it for them, the managerial style of the person they'll be reporting to, what they need to do to keep their job in 12 months, what they need to do to excel, give them a vision, give them a vision of where they could be seven years down the line if they do X, Y, Z.

And another big thing as well is give people feedback even if you don't want to hire them, because it's a very incestuous industry, it's a very small world, roofing. You don't need people out there in your local area bad-mouthing your company just because you couldn't give them feedback. So I would just say really consider how you would feel if you were in this process and you weren't getting treated correctly. And a lot of the time there's no malice in it, but it does have an effect. And I'm not just saying protect the candidate's feelings. I'm saying protect your employer brand. Don't you lose out in hiring A-players because you've got a lengthy process.

Another big thing as well is the exit interview. So if someone has left your organization to go elsewhere, wait until the dust has settled, maybe it's a month later, and offer them a hundred dollars in vouchers to have an interview to ask, "Why did you leave? Was it the progression? Did we not handle this right? Was it the manager?" And that in itself can be revolutionary in opening your eyes to seeing what's went wrong. I heard a saying last month and it was, "If you want to understand water, don't ask fish because they're too deep in it to understand it." So the 28-day exit interview can be something that can give you the candidate's perspective that left your business to stop more candidates from leaving. So yeah, they're just a few things that I would mention.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, those are all... Exit interviews are so smart. And I can't believe it, we're getting to the end of our hour and I just passed that slide, I'm so sorry. But with some strategies that all of our guests can take to see what's happening, what are some long-term strategies that these companies should be adopting?

Luke McCormack: Yeah. So flipping it on its head as to why people leave, if people aren't growing, they start leaving. So invest in training and development. Ryan Groth, Sales Transformation Group. I've seen Ryan doing some amazing things with developing sales teams. There's Greg Hayne, I think it is, had one the other day there. And it was advising people how to grow their service departments. One of my clients actually brings in external consultants to train their branch managers on financial analysis so that they can get better in that aspect of it. How can you expect your employees to get better if you're not invested in them to do so? Be proactive about that. It's so important. And if people are growing, your company's growing and you're retaining them. The trade schools are full of untapped talent that can be brought into the business, that can be recruited, that can be developed, that can be brought up through the ladder.

I know people that have worked for these trade schools for years and they're desperately trying to find companies to take the people in the schools and there's some absolute stars in there. So I would say build relationships with these trade schools, universities. There's a lot of graduates out there that are thinking, I don't really want to go into law or tech IT and be one of a million others. Reach out to them. These people can make a massive impact in your organization. They can learn quickly, they can bring innovative ideas to the table and look at that as an avenue to get staff members into the business. I think roofing as an industry is so collaborative. We've became so collaborative, we've became so forward-thinking in terms of putting ourselves out there and taking your staff members, taking your business to the NRCA, for example, be part of the NRCA. When you're part of the NRCA, they have so much there that you can get your employees to develop them.

It's literally all there waiting for you. It's so cost-effective for what you get in return. And I think there's a big portion of the industry that aren't members of the NRCA, and I have no idea why. When you look at the value that's given in the money that they're charging, it's a no-brainer. So as a business owner, if you want roofing-specific information, skills, contacts to upskill your staff members, the NRCA have literally got it all there waiting for you. I think as well the employer brand is such a big thing. Shine a light on your employees, shine a light in what you do together, shine a light in what you do for communities. That in itself will differentiate you and it's almost like an evergreen strategy. But I'm speaking to business owners every day and they're like, "I need to hire this person because this person's going to retire. This person is, this person is."

And the problem is, Heidi, they've got everything saved in their head. They don't have their processes and systems documented so they can't delegate. And when that one person does retire or God forbid something bad happens, there's a massive problem there. So it's like there's so many training providers that you can work with. I know John Kenny does a lot of this and it's like they can come into your business and implement processes and systems to allow you to delegate, to allow you to onboard new staff members. And there's a lot of PE coming into roofing. One of the main reasons that PE won't get involved with you is because you're not delegating. You don't have second-tier management in place. You don't have processes and systems documented. That's why you'll always be the guy that's wearing 10 different hats and you'll probably work until your body gives up on you and you don't need to.

There's resources out there, there's help out there. There's people that can come in. We can help build your second-tier management system. There's so many other people out there like Joe Bazzano can help you with exit plan. There's people that can help you with your processes and systems like reach out to the collaborative nature of this roofing industry and it will help you get off the front lines and allow your business to go to the next level.

But the biggest thing here, Heidi, is you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. It's commit. It's literally commit today to take your business to the next level. The industry's still booming, everyone's still hiring and there's so much opportunity out there that you don't want to live with regret and know that you didn't take advantage of it. So I'd be happy to speak to anyone if they want to know average salaries, if they want help with succession planning. If you look at the RoofersCoffeeShop, like RoofersCoffeeShop is the vehicle for getting your brand out to the rest of the industry. It's literally all within touch and distance. You just need to commit and reach out and take it. So there, that would be a few of the things that I'd like to end on. And of course, if anyone needs help with recruitment or just literally advice, I'm more than happy to help anyone.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And I want to say thank you because we are at the hour, but Luke, his email is in the chat. He has a directory on RoofersCoffeeShop and on MetalCoffeeShop where you can get all the information from McCormack Partners. If you're on LinkedIn, please connect and follow Luke. I want to thank everybody for being on here. But most of all, Luke, you, thank you so much. This has just been amazing.

Luke McCormack: Yeah, no, my pleasure, Heidi. And I think as well, I'm so glad you've put this on for MetalTalk because metal roofing is so much harder to recruit into than every other sector of roofing. So it's even more important for the metal industry. And yeah, I'm just so grateful you've given me this platform to speak and I am sure we'll be doing a lot more.

Heidi J Ellsworth: We will have you back because there's more to talk about. Thank you all for watching this MetalTalk. Please join us again next week. We have coffee conversations, we have RLW, all kinds of things that you can find on MetalCoffeeShop and on RoofersCoffeeShop. So again, thank you and have a great day.

Luke McCormack: Thanks guys.