Moving Beyond Head Trash - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Renie Cavallari, the award-winning author and speaker about the mental health of today’s businesses. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the recording.

Intro: Hello and welcome to Contractor Outlook Newscast. My name is Heidi Ellsworth, and this is the podcast newscast that really takes us outside the roofing industry, outside construction to bring in important information you need for your contracting business. And I have to tell you today is amazing. We have with us today, Renie Cavallari. And Renie, welcome to the show.

Renie Cavallari: Thank you, Heidi. It's really wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I have to tell you, I am a little bit of a fan girl today because I saw you speak last year at National Women in Roofing and it was the highlight of the National Women in Roofing Day for me. And now to have you on this newscast really is so exciting, and especially right now when we are really talking about culture and talking about mental space and how we are changing the world and you are doing that. So let's start with an introduction and tell us a little bit about you and what you do.

Renie Cavallari: First, I loved hanging out with all those fabulous women and there were a couple of men in that audience too out in Vegas.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: There was.

Renie Cavallari: And what an honor, what an honor that was. And I did have a day full of HeadTrash, so it's a great topic. That day was a crazy day. But for me personally, I'm a lot of things. I'm a mama, and I'm a daughter, I'm a sister. I'm an entrepreneur, I have four companies. So that just means that I've stepped in more piles of roofing than most else. But I'm also an author and a speaker and a flutist, I'm a passionate cook. So yeah, I have a lot of interests. I think it's a gift from my attention deficit challenges.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Don't we all have a little bit of that?

Renie Cavallari: Absolutely.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I mean, I just think they just didn't have a name for it, but now they do.

Renie Cavallari: So true.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: If you can, tell everybody about your book, HeadTrash and I mean this is really how I got to know you, is listening to this concept that you've written about of really how we can get outside of our head, do things in a way that brings the positive and kind of takes us into new spaces.

Renie Cavallari: So actually, HeadTrash, it was my eighth book and it took a long time to write because it's full of really information that came through almost 30 years of having my firm, Powered by Aspire. And Aspire is we transform people, we do a lot of training, a lot of leadership development. And in looking at how do you help people achieve to their potential, what awakens people, we came to understand that of course we all know that we have to have the right mindset and we should be positive. And I don't know about you, Heidi, but for me personally, sometimes I am not positive and I can't get out of my own way.

And what we came to understand working with tens of thousands of leaders all over the globe is that it wasn't the gap of mindset as we think of it, positivity. It was not understanding how to dump the HeadTrash. Those nasty little voices in our head that undermine us, they suck our energy, steal our potential and they're loud, they can keep us up at night. So it was really in identifying this is the biggest gap in helping people achieve their potential, that I became fascinated by, "Well, how do you close that gap?" And HeadTrash: The Leading Killer of Human Potential, this last book, really looked at through stories what is it that leads us to the HeadTrash? And then what is the model of getting out of it? How can we learn the tools to actually move through our HeadTrash and really aspire?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I just find that so amazing because growing up we used to call it the little man running around in my head who was talking trash, and that's why as I listened to you and read your books it really resonated of, "How do you change that?" I would love for you to talk a little bit more about that because I just think people, and you said it perfect, sometimes we just have to get out of our own way. We sometimes call it borrowing trouble. What are some of the things you're seeing from a business perspective that when you can't get past that that really can affect the company culture and success?

Renie Cavallari: Yeah, well, I think one of the things we have to understand as leaders... And by the way, leadership is a behavior, it's not a position, so everybody leads in some way. As leaders who are in the position when we understand that when we decrease emotional stress for people and our HeadTrash causes higher levels of emotional stress. You're lucky, you're an overachiever, you only had one guy in your head. I have a lot of noise in my head. There's a whole team up there. And so when we start to understand that our job is to really help people aspire, then all of a sudden here's a simple formula. When we decrease the emotional stress, we help people gain clarity. And when people gain clarity, they take productive action.

You see the opposite is also true. When you have a high level of emotional stress, now you have chaos. When you have all that chaos, you're just not as productive. So as we learn these skills for ourselves, and by the way, the way to dump your HeadTrash is the same whether it's for yourself or whether it's for someone you're leading or someone you're collaborating with or even someone you're negotiating with. And by the way, it also works, I'm a mama and it works with your child too. So when we learn that we can navigate this decreasing of emotional stress on behalf of either ourselves or someone else, we really can change not just how a person feels, how they act. And when we're productive, we feel aligned within our organization, we feel aligned with one another. And when we feel that alignment, that's what culture is.

A healthy culture is one that allows people to come together. So it doesn't matter what you define as your vision, your mission, your values, people come together and they align. And when they align, we're extraordinarily powerful. Whether it's as an individual, when I'm in integrity with myself I'm aligned or within a company. And so the impact of navigating HeadTrash goes way beyond corporate culture. It goes into how I want to live as human being. And ultimately to me, success is about joy. How much joy is in my life, that's how I define success. And so learning how to dump my own HeadTrash allowed me to help others. And I still have HeadTrash, it's just I also have the skills to get the heck out of my way.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And everybody does, everybody has HeadTrash. When someone says, "Oh no," I'm like, "No, everybody has it. At some point or the other, it happens." So as I'm looking at that and with what you're saying, boy, it just really resonates because I think about how often do we actually create HeadTrash in other people, but with unrealistic expectations, by not communicating accurately, by making it this big crisis that is it really that big of a crisis? I feel like that's changed, I don't know if that's with age or with the cultures. But what are some of your thoughts about not letting people create HeadTrash into employees? Because it's one thing for an employee or ourselves to try to work through that, but then when you have someone else keeping it on, that doesn't help.

Renie Cavallari: Yeah, dumping HeadTrash on other people is not a good leadership technique. And I can tell you I did it many, many times. I'm sure I still do it. I remember years ago I used to walk into my office and I would be on the phone. Because God forbid I waste a single moment of time. So I'd drive from my house, which was only 15 minutes to our office and I'd on the phone the whole time. I get all my stuff in my bag, get out of the car, go into the office and go flying by the person who was our lead administrative person every morning. Her name is April, and she is delightful and hugely successful. She's gone on to have an amazing career. I'm so proud of her. And backtrack, to this really crazy person with all her energy blowing by her desk, on the phone, not engaging. And I'm just focused on my call.

And I remember one day I walked into the office and I wasn't on a call and I was like, "Good morning." And I noticed that she got nervous and I was like, "Are you okay?" And she said, "Well, you usually don't talk to me when you walk in." And you know how sometimes when someone says something and it takes you to your knees, like, "Oh my God, am I that?" And I looked at her and I said, "Of course I do." And she goes, "Well, you always nod." And I'm looking this fabulous person who is a delightful addition to our team and all I can think about is I walk in with all my crazy phonetic energy, I dump it all, I spew it all over her, intimidating her and not intending to do so. But we're responsible for our impact, not our intentions.

So I have to tell you, that was the greatest gift. We still stay in touch. And it was such a gift because I became self-aware that inadvertently I was creating chaos. And that chaos created emotional stress and it became disruptive for this person who was working on my behalf. So I was decreasing her productivity by my actions, not by anything she was doing. So when we become aware of the power that we have with one another, then we can start to slow it up. And I'm not kidding, there's a joke in my organization, because over the years we have cameras outside of the building, we don't have this building anymore, but I would sit in the car and not go in the office until I finished my call and it was called the April effect because I was like, I just didn't want to walk in. And it didn't matter who was in there at the time, I wanted to be the kind of leader and human being that was respectful.

Sometimes I do a better job, and then there's other times I could be at the grocery store and someone doesn't get their darn credit card out and I'm running late and I got HeadTrash over, "What, do you think the food's for free?" So we can work ourselves up. And I think first and foremost, we have to accept that we all have HeadTrash and that we go to what we call the disconnected side of our emotional brain. So one of the findings that we had with working with thousands of people over these years is that all humans have this. We have our physical brain that is actually running our body, but we have an emotional brain that's running our life. And there's two sides. There's the connected side and the disconnected side, and our HeadTrash lives on the disconnected side along with negativity, fear, worry, anxiety.

We don't listen well on this disconnected side. We don't collaborate. We have our egos at stake on that disconnected side, all the icky parts of my person is all around that side. But our life, our joy, our happiness, collaboration, our brilliance, our ability to solve a problem is on the connected side of our emotional brain. And when we learn the tools to just move from the disconnected side to the connected side of our emotional brain, now we learn how to dump and manage. If we can't completely dump it, we can manage our HeadTrash and now we can sleep better, we can experience our work better, we can have better relationships. And not just relationships with others, relationships with ourselves because we're not so critical. We're critical on that disconnected side.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes. Wow. That just hits home. It hits home so much because you think about it, when you're just humming along and you're getting your work done, you feel so great, you know you're connected and you know you're in the right space and you're doing the right things for you and for everyone around you. And that disconnected side, really, that's when... It makes so much sense that's when productivity just plummets.

But I want to talk a little bit, I want to take this back a little because of course I go right into the office, right? Because I love all these roofing companies out there, all these contracting companies that are trying to build the strong culture and I want to come back to that. But really when we look at it as a country overall, we are a bit disconnected right now as a country in our communication styles, how we communicate, respect, all of those kinds of things. How is that... And you and I have talked a little bit about this. In fact, you gave me this really great example of how you saw the summer Olympics and just country overall, but how as a country are we kind of adding to some of the mental health issues or the HeadTrash that's out there?

Renie Cavallari: Yeah. So we've always had HeadTrash, and I think COVID really impacted our HeadTrash and it disconnected us from each other in so many ways. I mean, there was the physical elements of a mask. There was the emotional things like, "I can't go to the grocery store, I have to do this." Or then there was the remote working, which at the time was super hard for people. One, we weren't technologically ready, we weren't mentally ready. We just had to. I mean, look what it did to education. We have kids that miss some significant years of their life, whether it was kindergarten and first grade or seventh grade or my daughter was in college during COVID and it impacted her experience in ways that changed her for her life. So I do think that there's been some extenuating circumstances that have taken our HeadTrash to a whole other level.

I think social media adds to our HeadTrash. We're constantly critical of ourselves. We see people in their life, like I posted today on Instagram and I'm living in Italy right now and I'm doing research and I'm working on a new book and I'm working here. But my post isn't about the agony of writing a book and not liking what I'm writing and not feeling like it or having challenges at the office or not... That's not what I'm posting. I'm posting, "Oh, I'm here. Oh, I'm there." It looks like, "Man, what a fantastic..."

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes.

Renie Cavallari: And I think I wrote something like, "Living in joy." And of course everyone's like, "You're living in Italy." But I didn't post...

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes.

Renie Cavallari: "This is this book." And then I've been doing things that they don't all... Like life is full of this stuff. I also think we experienced a lot of burnout because of the COVID factor. A lot of people lost their jobs. So there were people out of work which felt... It doesn't matter if people had to lay you off for very good reasons, you felt a hurt, a disconnect. I felt it with people. 25 years, COVID hit, it was our 25th anniversary. I had never laid a single person off ever in 25 years.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It's the worst.

Renie Cavallari: It took me to my knees and it hurt these people that I cared about. It was terrible. Then the people left behind, we were like crazy banshee people doing three times more because we had to work differently. We didn't know how to do things. We were redundant. We hadn't thought through the processes the new way. And so we became exhausted. Well, exhaustion and HeadTrash, they'd be best pals. So the more tired you get...

So what I loved about the Olympics was so many things. One, there was nothing like watching Simone Biles not just come back after she honored herself and so many people were critical that she just walked away four years before and she honored her own mental health. And here she was four years later, and people were acknowledging, instead of, "How dare she?" They were saying, "What a powerful being. What an amazing example." And she went out there and she did what she does on the... This insanity. But it was the strength of her mental health. It was beautiful. Or that Michael Phelps has come out, the Olympian of all Olympians in swimming and said, "I struggle with mental health issues." I mean, the guy's got enough gold around him you'd think, "No, what is wrong with him? He's got a fabulous wife. He's got beautiful children, yada, yada, yada."

So I think part of the Olympics that I loved was this opening of talking about mental health and in a great way, instead of it being, "We have to keep it a secret, there's something wrong with this person," that we had more compassion for it. Another thing I loved about the Olympics was we had Snoop Dogg. I mean, I'm sorry, but Snoop Dogg's at the Olympics, they changed it up. It was truly diverse. Diverse in its youth, diverse in like Colin Jost, he's covering surfing, he's doing these great skits and making us laugh and he's laughing at himself. So in the seriousness of the Olympics, I felt like America had a glue that felt really wonderful to be involved in.

And I think this is part of our culture that we have to own our HeadTrash. We have to own the fact that the past has been tricky, but where I can have compassion for another person, where I can reach my hand out, where I can learn from someone else's politics that I don't particularly care for. I have dealt with politics that wasn't like mine my whole life. But for some reason our anger, our disappointment, the fabric of who we want to be as human beings has eroded. And we have to take that back. We have to take back our own and say, "This is who I am." And I think we're always better when we're compassionate with one another.

And it doesn't mean that we don't get disappointed. Heck, I get disappointed with my child. We get disappointed. That's it. But how we treat each other, how we listen to each other, that only happens when we're on the connected side of the emotional brain. How we solve problems. See, the problems are on the disconnected side, the solutions are on the connected side. So you and I, we can agree that there's the problem, but what we have to do is work together from the connected side and that's where we can hear each other, we can be open to other ideas, we can learn, we can hear something that, "Oh, well, I hadn't thought of it that way." And that requires self-reflection. Self-awareness, it's all on the connected side. Denial, self-denial, self-hate, judgment, that baby is on the disconnected side and it's gotten too much fertilization. We got too much HeadTrash over there.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I agree. I agree. We have so much HeadTrash right now. And the thing I do love that has happened is that this next generation, so you talk about your daughter, my daughter was in college during COVID also, but that generation, they're stepping out. They're talking about it, they're talking about what's going on and they're not scared to talk about it. And I think that is making such a change.

But when we look at the culture of either the country or business, we have some generational conflicts that are going on. We have the generation of just, "Do what you're told, don't say anything. Get on with it," and let those teams run around in your head. And now we have this next generation where we have all been, "Tell us about it. Tell us what's going on, how do you feel?" So trying to work through that. But I have great optimism around what's changing about talking about mental health and that it's a real thing. What do you see when you really look at this next generation coming up and how as employers, as the older generation, how we need to get to the connected side and really embrace and celebrate this next generation?

Renie Cavallari: Yeah. Well, first we have to start on the connected side. And when we're judging someone, I always say, "I'm the millennial of my grandmother's generation."

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's right.

Renie Cavallari: Be careful about the stones you're throwing at that house because that house is glass. And it's just a different perspective. I think one of the findings that we've uncovered for many years are really fundamental leadership skills. And culture and effectiveness inside organizations it's leadership, leadership, leadership. It's leadership. When you have great leadership, you have collaboration, you have emotional engagement, you have the opportunity to seek better strategies. But ultimately, when leaders know how to truly lead, they create alignment. And that goes back to clarity. So when we have alignment with one another, so if we can agree on X, "This is where we're going," now we can have healthy discussions so we can gain clarity on how we can get there.

So we identify through, one of my companies is called the RCI Institute and we study how to shift human behavior, that's all we've done for all these years. And then Aspire actually works with organizations to execute that. So here's what we found out. There are six true skills, and these are skills that create a certain behavior that create alignment. They aren't tricky. Actually, it was what are the things that we could teach anyone and therefore they could self lead? And if you can self lead, those same skills would have to be able to be utilized in a group leading environment. So that was kind of our hypothesis, and we studied this for quite some time.

So number one is connection. So when you think about connection, you think about trust. If we as leaders can reach out and Washington DC, hello, all over, if we can reach out and find even rapport with one another so that we can therefore feel safe enough to... A little connection goes a long way. And this is when we see difficult challenges and there's resolve. Not everyone gets 100%, but you find the mix that allows this connection, allows us to move forward. The second is what we call clean communication. And clean communication is being able to have dialogue. That means I have to be able to listen and also have a chance to be heard. It means that I have to say what needs to be said, but in a way another person can hear it not just, "Blah, blah, blah," this nasty talk that goes on.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes.

Renie Cavallari: The third is compassion. And we're finding right now that compassion is one of the most undervalued leadership skills out there. We find ourselves in judgment. As you said before, we have four, maybe even five generations in the workplace, which is incredible. So when you're working with a boomer, they can't see fine print and their hearing isn't as good. So a person who is serving in let's say in a senior living community who happens to be generation Z serving a traditionalist or a boomer, we have to help people understand the compassion that's required to work together. Because by the way, you're working together in a senior living community, we're working together all the time.

The fourth is having a higher purpose, a clarity of your own and within an organization. And how is it that we have people who put... Because we traveled the globe working with leaders, so we have tools that we ship out. We have people who put things in boxes for us, books, it could be pens. It's not considered complex work. Well, let me tell you, it's complex. Because when I open up that box, that person is more important to me than anybody else. So when we start to understand how every person is valued and contributes to the higher purpose of an organization, we create pride. That's what a higher purpose does. It gives us that glue, that pride.

The fifth thing that we identified was participation, which is really creating emotional engagement. How do I engage you in a way that you care deeply? So that when you're speaking out and opposing something, it's in a way of, "I care," not in a way of, "I'm undermining." Because we need emotional engagement. And then last but not least, the sixth what we call pillar, because these are all the six pillars of intentional leadership and alignment is, responsibility, which is when we give responsibility, we create accountability. What happens is we micromanage the heck out of stuff, or we don't trust people enough to give them the responsibility. And then we can't figure out, "Why is it that I'm the only person accountable around here?"

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. Because you haven't really given anybody responsibility to be accountable.

Renie Cavallari: Right. And so what happens is when we can help people navigate their HeadTrash and then integrate these leadership skills into their daily life for self-leadership, and by the way, they're the exact same ones for self-leadership, but then all of a sudden we can change the culture within. Because your culture within yourself is your heart and soul. It's your soul. And then the culture of a company is their heart and soul. And we know that when these are working in tandem, we can shift an organization and the people in it. And I think that's really the difference in what we need to do as human beings for one another right now.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: You know, one of my questions I was going to ask you was how can contracting companies really build that strong company culture? And you just answered it. I mean it's really those six pillars of looking at it. So I would really recommend everybody out there as you're looking at this culture to read HeadTrash, to look at Renie's everything you're doing, all of your books, your new one included and really understanding how that leadership style. Because we always say it starts at the top and we'll say other things roll downhill, right? So what are you doing at the top? Make sure it's all a positive role there.

And so as some final tips, Renie, on contractors, construction, you were at National Women in Roofing Day, you saw all these amazing women and some men who are in roofing. We are constantly looking to rise on construction overall and the professionalism, the culture. In construction we deal with a lot of mental health issues, addiction, suicide. What are some of the things that you recommend as a construction company along with what you've already talked about, but just to how to really engage and care for your company culture so that it embraces mental health and helps people get out of the HeadTrash?

Renie Cavallari: Yeah. Well, I hate to be redundant, because I try to keep things very simple. And to me, when I don't like what I see inside my company, I take a good hard look at myself. And generally speaking, I'm not digging what I'm seeing. And so as leaders, I think when we have the strength to be self-reflective, when we have the strength to... We want people to forgive us. I hope people forgive me for my lousy leadership days or my not handling situations correctly. I think that we want others to do that for us, and that when we can be self-reflective and say, "You know, sometimes I'm just not all that fabulous. And how can I lead from this humbled space and how can I connect more with my people?"
Connection is the number one pillar. The rest are all important, but without connection an organization doesn't have that emotional glue. And so that was April's point when I would walk in and she felt disconnected to me because I appeared to not care. And what a horrible feeling that must have been for her. And thank goodness we had a culture where she felt safe enough to say, "Hey, boss, that ain't so nice." And so to listen as leaders, to know that we don't get it right. Personally, I have had a coach for so many decades, I don't know when it started, but to have someone who challenges me in my own BS and my own story and my own, "The way it's got to be." And I think that helps me be compassionate and have a different perspective with other people.

And I do think that sometimes we think leadership and the development of leaders and HeadTrash, it's all fluffy stuff. And I got to tell you, I have seen organizations with amazing products and amazing talent that are a total disaster when it comes to leadership and alignment. And they perform under market share and have more mediocrity than organizations that have less talent, that have a product that isn't as good. And yet they have the power of a leader and leaders that are aligned and have... That's why startups they have such a hard time because they're like, "We're going to build the greatest blank, and we're there," and they're doing it and they're energized and everyone's contribution matters. And the person who ran and got your coffee you value and yada, yada, yada. And there's all of this beautiful energy. And that when we as leaders understand that each of us has the ability to create that emotional engagement with people through the way we behave towards them, we can change the world.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love that. And I agree with it so much. And I love the nugget. The nugget is look at yourself as a leader first. What are you doing and how are you connecting? That is fabulous. Renie, how do people get a hold of you? I know you just spoke at Owens Corning, you spoke at National Women in Roofing Days. I'm telling you, I'm just loving what you're bringing to our industries. How can people get ahold of you or see you speak?

Renie Cavallari: Okay, so you can get ahold of me at, well, a couple places, Powered by Renie and it's R-E-N, as in Nancy, I-E. So poweredbyrenie.com is a website with all kinds of resources around my speaking as well as books. And there's also lots of free resources there. We don't do anything, we don't market it, much to my marketing person's dismay. It's just resources to help you with HeadTrash, et cetera. And then to get in touch with me, just reach out to Renie@, you can do poweredbyrenie or poweredbyaspire, A-S-P-I-R-E. I'm also @poweredbyrenie on Instagram, though I don't do a lot of businessy stuff because to me, I think there's just so much of that out there. And to me it's about connection and helping people find joy. I think this is the secret of life is that when you are in joy that... And that's why it's called en joy, en joy. It's one word, it's two words and then it's a one word. It's a good thing. That that is the secret to a fabulous life. And the more time you spend enjoying the better life is.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That is fabulous. I love it. I agree 100%. And for everyone out there, you can find information about Renie, on RoofersCoffeeShop, of course, on all the CoffeeShops. But please go to her website. I have read HeadTrash. It is a great book, has both audio, you can listen to it or you can read it. And there's also this really fabulous journal that I have also, Renie. So yeah, it is-

Renie Cavallari: The Joy Journal.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: The Joy Journal. It's so awesome. You've brought so much to everyone, to the world. But also I'm excited to bring this to construction because I think we need it more now than ever. So thank you so much for all you're doing.

Renie Cavallari: Thank you. I really appreciate the time.

Outro: I love it. And thank you all for this great newscast, Contractor Outlook will keep coming to you with topics, speakers who we see, who we admire, who we want to bring into the construction world. So stay tuned. Please see all of the Contractor Outlook Newscasts on all of the CoffeeShops. You can find them under the RLW, under podcasts or on your favorite podcast channel or YouTube. Be sure to subscribe and set those notifications so you don't miss a single episode. We will be seeing you soon on the next Contractor Outlook Newscast.