Is the insurane company required to pay for ridge cap and starter course?

Spot-on Twill.....exacto-mundo....couldn't have said it better myself....

2200 lurks and 19 posts. Hey webmaster steve find a new question of the month. No one wants to talk about this one.

The insurance certainly doesn't want to pay for cap and starter as separate line items. It is much cheaper for them to bundle it into waste. It is a fallacy to believe 10% and 15% respectively are adequate numbers to use for all gables and hips. The math proves otherwise.

We almost always get cap paid for as a separate line item where the field shingle is laminated. It's very simple, the ridge cap is a different material type. Further, you can't salvage any trim scrap to be used as cap from the field shingles. We include an attachment note under the RFG 300 line item explaining this. I'm going to say we get this paid 24 out of 25 times.

Starting last week, we're now doing our estimates using 5% waste for simple gables, 7.5% for simple hips and adding additional waste when the complexity of the roof geometry increases. We're also putting starter and cap as separate line items for all shingle types. I am tired of arguing with Field and Desk adjusters over the appropriate amount of waste (by bundling in everything but the kitchen sink) only to come up short on materials and then having another major battle getting that paid for in a supplement. Cap and starter pay more than the RFG 220/240/300 line item. They should, the labor content is different.

As to another couple of comments here, WC and GL are indeed factored into the Xactimate line item pricing. If you know how to drill down into the price breakdown in Xactimate, you can actually see it and the percentages applied. Don't confuse this for me believing the Xactimate pricing is appropriate, I'm simply saying those items are factored in.

If you know how to properly write an estimate utilizing Xactimate AND work the insurance company to pay the appropriate line items, insurance work can be very profitable. I've found the majority of the people who complain about the low rates paid by insurance simply aren't working it correctly.

Why should we be forced to use Xactimate? We are Roofers and most of us started by using our experience and a calculator to figure out what it would take to properly complete a roofing job. Being stuck in the middle of nothing but homeowners using their insurance to pay for their roofs right now, I am learning a thing or two to get what we need to do the job correctly and at our price. I remember when an insurance company took your estimate along with two others and let the owner choose who did the job. I don't think this whole Xactimate era has done justice to anyone except those who have taken the class, ex-adjusters, Stormers. I find it surreal to see the stormers come into Northern Ohio with the Texas, Colorado, WI plates and bring with them anything but an English speaking crew to do the work. Amazing to see firsthand.

Back to the question: They should indeed have to pay for anything that takes our time to order, time to deliver, time to apply and time to remove from a roof. If they lack the fortitude to tell a homeowner that pee size hail doesn't damage a roof then they should indeed have to pay! Not one time have I seen any kind of Standard within the same insurance company in two years. All of them may be trying but they also sub out their work. That hurts them as these adjusters get paid the more damage they find. How 1 shingle buys 50-60 Squares on a house is crazy. However, it wouldn't be wise of me to not take this work on either. Since I am not the one in an adjusters face screaming for damage I have kept my Ethics and let them say it's damaged or not. I am a Roofer Not a Certified Hail Inspector!

soldierboy, nobody is forcing you to use Xactimate. Nobody is forcing you to take on insurance jobs either. Obviously, the changing market place and the economy has put many in a position where they need to consider that side of the business in order to survive. In doing so, one must recognize how the game has changed if you're to prosper as a participant.

The point I was trying to make is insurance work can be suitably profitable if you understand how to work it correctly. It is indeed different than the traditional residential roofing business. In the traditional roofing business, you could command higher, profitable rates due to your expertise in the trade itself. Now you not only have to sell the Homeowner to work with you, you also have deal with that 3rd party that is essentially funding the job.

You may believe that one damaged shingle on an older roof does not warrant the insurance company paying for a complete roof replacement. The fact is, in many cases it does per the terms of their policy. The insurance companies write the policies and set the premiums. If they have a real issue with paying for that roof with one shingle damaged, they need to change the policy. There's are very good reasons they don't and it all has to do with bottom line profits.

To be clear, I'm in no way a fan of Xactimate or of the P&C insurance companies. I am however a fan of being able to pay my mortgage and buy groceries. To do so in the existing market requires a certain level of adaptation as compared to the traditional market. Like it or not, it is what it is.

same here

The answer is "NO". The adjuster's job is 3-part: 1. confirm the scope of damage that the insured is claiming. (unfortunately most homeowners and contractors just call the adjuster out without determining the scope of their loss first). 2. identify that the proximate cause is a covered peril. 3. settle the claim for the least amount of money that the insured is willing to accept.

Every state regulates insurance companies differently. Storm adjusters often do no know/understand the applicable insurance laws or building codes in the state they are adjusting in. In fact, over the last 3 decades they have been "dumbed-down" so arguing with them is often a waste of time. Here is what YOU should DO. 1. Make sure your client is dedicated to using YOU. Make sure that they understand that you want to put back a 100% new roof assembly and not be paid for only parts of it. 2. Put together the best/most accurate estimate possible. If you are a smart businessman, you will take your costs, add overhead, and then multiply by your desired profit margin. (If you want to use Xactimate, feel free but it is REALLY the overall number that the insurance company is looking at. They don't REALLY care about the line items like ridge and starter except to the extent that they can reduce the claim amount.) 3. Attach your estimate to a letter from your client identifying YOUR ESTIMATE AS THEIR CLAIM and send it with a PROOF OF LOSS form your client's insurance company. You want to deal with inside adjusters, not field adjusters. The bottom line is, DO NOT allow the insurance adjuster to define the claim, that is really the contractor's job.

If you are going to do much in the way of property restoration work, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND buying and reading THE CLAIM GAME by Andrew Wallingford. There is a digital edition available at www.theclaimgamebook.com

twill, aren't you getting a little old to be on a roof :laugh: :laugh: TomB you're so high, ooops, hail doesnt bother you. and neither of you want to play the game. Somebody has to do the work so give the local guy who can and wants to do it, encouragement. More of the locals doing it means you push out more of the chasers. and in the process help to keep the the Insurance co. and the adjustor at our level not theirs

Most policies have simular language. "Repair or replace with like kind and quality."

If the homeowner has starter and ridge and you can prove the B.S. waste factor that is industry standard does not adequately account for the materials needed, then yes they are required under the policy to pay for ridge and starter.

Quantities of ridge, starter, and waste can easily be calculated. If the waste factor is insuficient then more waste or separate line items must be addressed properly.

Rocky....I've lived in and worked right smack in the middle of Colorado's hail country for the past 20 yrs....Pueblo to Ft. Collins....IMO, the hail/ins. game is for shyster-types....I choose not to play.

"dougger222 Said: One of my best friends is a 3 state storm chaser. Back in 08 a storm chaser sat at my wifes bar and they started talking about roofing. He said in the past 3 years his company roofed over 1,500 houses and he has 150 mexicans working for him. His wife was very pleased with all the hail damage in their back yard so he got to run his business out of his home for one season. Once hundreds of roofs were done it was back on the road."

I'm having trouble with the math. 1500 houses in three years is 500 houses per year. Divided by 150 mexicans= 3 1/3 houses per year per mexican. That's 15 weeks per house per man. How can this be considered productive? I have to say I find it hard to care. The math is the problem for sure. While I am thinking about it, it seems to me that inflation is more or less under control. They say it is more or less under control. As long as you don't mind sticking to cheap plastic crap from China, I guess it is under control. I have noticed inflation is rampant, big time, when I go to buy anything that is high-quality.

Starter and ridge cap is included in the "waste" column? Now that's a quality spreadsheet for ya. First-rate craftsmanship. What will get us to the end of the decade is what got us, forty years ago, to the moon; we've got the right stuff. Ron Howard put out a good movie on the Apollo program. I think I'll just stick with that.

bbb2eall Said: Hi Everybody Im the new guy. :cheer: I found this web site on google and it seems to be a cool site.

My question is: Is the insurance company required to pay for ridge cap shingles and starter course when the roof is totaled?

I have been dealing with several different insurance companies and when I send them my Xactimate showing charges for ridge and starter course, they tell me that those items are included in the waste. Is that correct? Or should they have to pay for those items in addition to the waste???

bbb2eall Said: Hi Everybody Im the new guy. :cheer: I found this web site on google and it seems to be a cool site.

My question is: Is the insurance company required to pay for ridge cap shingles and starter course when the roof is totaled?

I have been dealing with several different insurance companies and when I send them my Xactimate showing charges for ridge and starter course, they tell me that those items are included in the waste. Is that correct? Or should they have to pay for those items in addition to the waste???